pre-65 Spanish?

[Twinshock]

Alan, you have obviously put a lot of effort into your response and that shows a lot of passion is happening on this subject.
I too am doing research and at the moment the word is that the Miller bike was the only one produced as a prototype in late 64 but volume production didn't start till after January 65;
From a source in the UK;

"Miller rode the M10 for the first time in a UK trial the day after the British Experts in November 1964. The bike was his own development bike and wasn't available to the retail market until after January 1965, but I don't know where you could get what would be considered as conclusive proof of that.
However, the whole point of the cut-off date of 31st December 1964 for Pre65 trials was to exclude the Sherpa. When Pre65 started here in the UK, over 3 decades ago now, there were no 'modernised' bikes, so the Sherpa would have been just as far ahead of the British bikes in Classic trials as it was back in its own era. That date was chosen as a Sherpa wasn't available to buy before then so it didn't qualify and the idea was to have a British bike only series."

Your bike is obviously an early model but cannot be Pre 65 in what I have dug up so far.
Before people take me the wrong way I think its great that you have gone to the trouble of presenting your bike in superb condition and it needs to be ridden not hidden.
I also agree that our rules need to be more clearly defined so that we don't have these disagreements and we can get on with riding trials bikes.
Would love to see you up here in August,,,,,,,,,, riding Twinshock of course
Cheers
Twinshock

[Feet down]

Well done to Geoff for his fair and succinct observations with regard to the performance of the M10 Bultaco. I totally agree with him and Sammy Miller’s take of the pre 65 era and the modern stuff era.

I am not sure where the notion that only British bikes should be allowed to compete in the Australian Championship has come from, no mention of that anywhere. Craig Gillies would be able to ride his father’s CZ Australia and also in Scotland as a couple of CZ / Jawas are entered this year.

With regard to the pre 65 Scottish I believe that many of pre 65 Spanish bikes presented had late bits in the engines, sometimes 5 speed engines, later frames and modified frames etc. Policing these bikes was too hard so the decision was made to ban Spanish bikes. Only a hand-full of Spanish riders were upset, and there’s still a full entry of classic bikes this year.

Looking forward, Australia is lucky in the fact that the stable door is open but there’s nothing in the stable, expect for a basket case 63 Bultaco MX’er, to bolt. To stop the same Spanish bike Scottish scenario happening in Australia I would urge a ban on Spanish bikes entering the Pre 65 Classic Class as was the case a few years ago.

Looking at the photographs of the classic bikes at last years titles I note that not one bike (with the exception of the M10) has Bultaco leading axle forks. These forks would surely be the best around and the fact that no one is using them would seem to indicate that the riders have, without rules, unanimously decided that they are ineligible. By allowing the very nice M10 to compete in the pre 65 classic class precedent is being set that radial head Bultaco motors up to and including 1967 are eligible along with decent 35mm leading axle Bultaco/Betor forks. This is a serious consideration and if the eligibility of the Bulto M10 is upheld Classic trials in Australia will be classed as pre or post Phillipson. This issue is the same whether the M10 was placed first or last

For clarity to everyone, the MOMS Pre 65 Classic Class regulations should contain the words: No Spanish bikes, No Spanish motors, No Spanish forks, No Spanish hubs. ( I am aware that some people will attempt to use/hide later Japanese forks and hubs. This practice needs to be addressed in a different topic)

Anyone wanting to see or ride bikes with the above, should head to the Post Classic Class

[shaunb]

This is certainly in interesting thread and for those unaware it has spread OS to the Trials Central Forum. As is evident here there are arguments for both sides but some of the more interesting quotes are as follows (I have not attributed these so as not to dob anyone in, if you want to read the thread have a look at that site).

Of interest is that the first quote is the same “UK Source” mentioned above……

“Ironic really, as now, a modernised Cub, James etc will run rings around a 60s or early 70s Sherpa”

and others.....

“According to the DVLA website, Miller's Bultaco 669NHO was first registered 26.11.1964.

So....the fact it was built pre65 and used in a trial pre65....surely makes it qulaify. If you use the arguement that it was not available to the general public, then in theory most of the BSA Bantam/B40's should be not be eligible either, as they were only produced as a road bike (with the exception of the rigid D1 competition !!)”


“So, so true..Yes, it was definitely a 1964 bike as he rode it in a Midland centre trial the day after the British Experts on the Ariel. The 'Experts' trial is long gone but our centre trial is still going.

Never have understood that 'available to the public' thing. If they had wanted to exclude the Bultaco all they had to do was call it Pre65 British Bike class, or Pre70 or whatever”.

As I said above, an interesting subject, I have personally no vested interest in either argument as I am a TY tragic.

Cheers

Shaun B

[Feet down]

In comment to Shaunb’s post,

Most replies concern the vintage of Bultacos. It has never been disputed that Sammy Miller rode a Bulto in late 1964.

Woody is the first Pommie to grasp the issue and writes as follows:

“Miller rode the M10 for the first time in a UK trial the day after the British Experts in November 1964. The bike was his own development bike and wasn't available to the retail market until after January 1965, but I don't know where you could get what would be considered as conclusive proof of that.

However, the whole point of the cut-off date of 31st December 1964 for Pre65 trials was to exclude the Sherpa. When Pre65 started here in the UK, over 3 decades ago now, there were no 'modernised' bikes, so the Sherpa would have been just as far ahead of the British bikes in Classic trials as it was back in its own era. That date was chosen as a Sherpa wasn't available to buy before then so it didn't qualify and the idea was to have a British bike only series.

Ironic really, as now, a modernised Cub, James etc will run rings around a 60s or early 70s Sherpa”

The irony to which he refers is not relevant in Australia as there are no trick James’ or modernised cubs competing. All the cubs have the original Triumph forks, unaltered frames etc. The two recent championship-winning Cubs still had their original steel petrol tanks. A few have an oil tank frame brace and alloy petrol tank, both minor items in the MOMS.

On another matter and not relevant to this debate, I wonder whether anyone has details of the top three finishers in the Australian Open trials championship from say 1960 to 1975.
Just curious.

[keithj]

Seems to me that the issue here is whether to allow Spanish bikes into the pre-65 class.

Question on the current MOMS - has Australia ever excluded Spanish bikes in this class? I thought the MOMS did once have that mentioned, but maybe I'm dreaming.

If it was once there, when did it change, and why was it removed? (I had a look in the MA archive back to 2005 and there's no mention of Spanish bikes in that year).

PS. have added a poll to the front page of the website - how should Classic class be defined? Exactly as-is; pre-65 and exclude Spanish bikes (ie would allow the previously mentioned CZ); pre-65 and include British bikes only (excludes the Bulty and the CZ).

[David Lahey]

Good idea having the poll Keith
The "no Spanish bikes in pre-65 trials class" rule disappeared from the MOMS some time in the 1990s.

[Twinshock]

Agreed, top idea Keith
Incidentally I have been searching high and low for a scrap book I kept when I rode in the 60's in the UK and today I found it tucked away in boxes that have accompanied several house moves around the world.
One report I kept from the December 1st issue of the Motorcycle News was that Sammy Miller won a Midland Centre event on his Bultaco the day after competing in the previous days British Experts trial. All very well but the date on the paper was 1965 not 1964 as previously advised from a couple of sources. I have the clip and its as clear as daylight and I'll take it to the MTCQ two day at Easter if anyone would like a look.
Also the results I have show heaps of my old mates riding the old pommie stuff right through 64 and then suddenly around June / July 1965 they start appearing in the results riding Bultaco's.
Anyway back to the poll.
Its a great opportunity for anyone to air their view and opinion even if they were too shy to air it in this forum topic.
I'm also not too shy to say I voted "Pre 65 - No Spanish" sorry Dave,,,,, wanna buy a Cub !!
Regards
Twinshock

[BOGWHEEL]

Hope this is not a breach of copyright? -

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss33 ... 0001-1.jpg

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss33 ... an0002.jpg

[Feet down]

Voting for nothing

Please be aware we are voting for nothing as the M10 in qusetion was NOT manufacturered on or before 31 Dec 1964. At best it resembles Miller's November/December 1964 bike

[Feet down]

Voting for something

Sorry my M10-itis getting worse and is also affecting my spelling. We are obviously still voting on whether Spanish or Iron Block specials etc should compete. I do note the true figure for not wanting Spanish is the summation of categories 2 and 3