Rules for TS and P65?

[TriCub]

FM350. You realy need to give up on a rule change because there are to many out there with super modified pre 65 machines, your only option is to lobby for a new class of near stock bikes. The Ausy rules are not to bad for such a class as they still allow for some inprovments to make the bikes a bit more user friendly.
One problem with the Ausy pre65 class is lack of numbers and in the past the club I was in before I had my back problems tried to promote trials for classics.
The thing that happened was the guys with the heavy weight machines and the nicely restored B40's came along to have a go and then never came back because the sections that are easy for an experienced seasoned trial rider on a tricked up Bantam or Cub are almost life threatening on a 500 Aerial with a novice pilot. The same thing has slowly pushed away some riders, initaly the bikes being used were very stock Villiers powered things riden on our novice lines then a couple of better riders came along and the sections got a bit harded to suit. It was then that the Bantams started to get ported motors with Electronic ignitions and Cubs with similar mods (all still within the rules) pushed the standard a bit higher and the old cluckers seemed to get less in numbers.
The same thing has happened in the UK from what I can make of it where the machines got better then the sections got harded the the bikes got better then the sections got harder and it just got out of hand.
So push for your new class and make the sections easier and I'm sure it would take off.

[brt650]

+1
Great idea Tricub

[FM350]

I am sick of the unessasary debate and off topic rants about this subject in other posts you have contributed to or instigated. (feel free to search this site under posts by FM 350 to judge for yourself). So as you raised it as a separate topic, as suggested by others, it's worthy of reply. Yes we need rules.

The other suggestion to you by another poster from the UK in other posts about this topic about the UK scene (ad nauseum) has been - "what are you doing about it?" " get involved to make the changes if you feel strongly enough about it"

So going by the fact this topic has now been fleshed out and comment in its own topic - There Is No Need For You To Hijack Other Threads, Go Off Topic About This Ever Again On This Site - RIGHT? People are getting a little sick of it, and there has been more than enough hints to you dropped by way of comments along the way, need I not spell it out any clearer!!!

The point of this thread was to see whether people outside the UK, feel whether it would be a good idea to have no rules relating to TS and P65 trials, which is the situation here in the UK. You have suggested this is reflective of "trolling" and I simply wondered why you felt that to be the case?

[FM350]

FM350. You realy need to give up on a rule change because there are to many out there with super modified pre 65 machines, your only option is to lobby for a new class of near stock bikes. The Ausy rules are not to bad for such a class as they still allow for some inprovments to make the bikes a bit more user friendly.
One problem with the Ausy pre65 class is lack of numbers and in the past the club I was in before I had my back problems tried to promote trials for classics.
The thing that happened was the guys with the heavy weight machines and the nicely restored B40's came along to have a go and then never came back because the sections that are easy for an experienced seasoned trial rider on a tricked up Bantam or Cub are almost life threatening on a 500 Aerial with a novice pilot. The same thing has slowly pushed away some riders, initaly the bikes being used were very stock Villiers powered things riden on our novice lines then a couple of better riders came along and the sections got a bit harded to suit. It was then that the Bantams started to get ported motors with Electronic ignitions and Cubs with similar mods (all still within the rules) pushed the standard a bit higher and the old cluckers seemed to get less in numbers.
The same thing has happened in the UK from what I can make of it where the machines got better then the sections got harded the the bikes got better then the sections got harder and it just got out of hand.
So push for your new class and make the sections easier and I'm sure it would take off.

Yes thats exactly the case here in the UK Tri, and as we have no rules at all to speak of there are more and more recently manufactured brand new Brit twin-shock bikes appearing on the scene and being used in the P65 class, and it follows that those on anything vaguely authentic dont have any chance when competing seriously in the higher level events!

Unfortunately twin-shock here seems to be headed in exactly the same direction, and while a cheap converted mono (which doesnt work any better than a good original TS bike!) will result in howls of protest, a ground up new recently manufactured twin-shock fitted with a mono-shock motor, is something that will be accepted in the same way as the modern day Brit powered twin-shocks are in the P65 class!

I am not completely sure many people grasp the fact that ever increasing costs, and harder and harder sections to take marks from those with the money to afford modern day P65/TS bikes, are not things that are likely to make the sport more popular or accessible?

However anything which might suggest the modern day bikes in TS/P65 classes are not a good thing, is most often greeted with open hostility and derision, as are any proposals to introduce a completely new class, which would greatly reduce costs and make the sport more accessible to all!

[Geoff Lewis]

Hi All, I think Tricub has hit the nail square on the head but the horse has well and truly bolted. When I started riding Classics some eighteen years ago here in Vic, the class was primarily old bike enthusiasts playing at trials. We had a system of complete segregation at trials in as much as the classic guys had their own seperate sections and seperate trial but run under the same competition permit as moderns on the day. This did foster an "us and them" mentality and therefore did breed some resentment and this situation was clearly unsustainable in the long term. As soon as the pendulum swung towards primarily trials riders competing on old bikes within modern style sections the numbers declined more or less to the situation we have today.
Can we go back? I don't see how. The sections we rode back then were lame. The bikes were simply awful. Poorly prepared and set up. I was as guilty of this back then as anyone and it was only when Chris Leighfield came back on the scene that I started to appreciate what was possible, but where to from here? I still enjoy my riding but wish there were a lot more riders so we could have a real class again.
Regards Geoff.

[FM350]

The situation we have in the UK is that there are no rules at all to speak of, and this results in far more competitive modern day versions of TS and P65 bikes being ridden against much more authentic machinery, which is hopelessly outclassed by the very costly recently built bikes!

Those in the UK with plenty to say on subjects like converted monos being either much more competitive or "not in the spirit" of TS competition, are strangely silent on the subject of the modern day P65/TS bikes, which are certainly not in the spirit of classic competition, and in terms of function work an awful lot better than even highly modified authentic type machines.

Without rules things often tend to get dictated by those with most to say, but seemingly who have little or no understanding of the fact that allowing cheque book specials to be ridden in competition classes supposedly intended for older bikes, is not a good thing for the sport, as this tends to make sections harder, and greatly reduces the chances of the majority of riders who are still on machines which would comply with Aus type eligibility rules.

I guess the only real way round this is to form an entirely new UK classic trials association, whose member clubs would be obliged to comply with association rules, and then it would be a matter of choice whether or not to continue running events without rules, and with little or no co-operation with other clubs running events along similar lines!

[Jon V8]

Chris,now you have actually made a sensible suggestion, starting a new classic trials association,if thats what you feel is needed - why dont you get on and do it ? What I cant grasp is that you are the one that keeps complaining about "£10k" bikes,yet a look around your website - which you still wont own up to owning,clearly pushes riders towards large numbers of modifications to their bikes. http://www.classictrial.co.uk/ A brief look through that lot would make anyone think they have no chance at all on a vaguely standard bike.Trouble is only a small proportion of riders have the skills and kit to carry out these mods themselves.So they need to come to you for it all,and I guess you dont do it for free ? Add up the cost of these mods and you drive up the cost of trials - which is what you keep banging on about....
The simple fact is there are still plenty of twinshock bikes around for a sensible sum which can be enjoyed,there is a fully prepped 200 Fantic here locally going for £1800,at our last trial there was a very smart 350 Bultaco with a card on it saying £1500 ono. Either of those bikes could be enjoyed immediately and could win anything going in TS in the UK.So why chop up mono's,(When they have their own class) and push loads of mods on Fantics and TLR's when you claim to want to stop the cost of TS going up and destroying itself as you claim P65 has ?
Yes there are very expensive bikes around,but they are a minority,often not ridden by the best riders,(We all know its the riders talent that wins) but ridden by people who choose to spend their own cash how they want to.If you start a new club or association then good luck to you,but you may find that riders dont want lots of rules to comply with or be turned away from a trial.We find that putting in sensible sections that are not dangerous is all you need to do,92 of us at our last trial - nobody complained so I can ony assume they are just happy to be out in the countryside enjoying old bikes.

[FM350]

I wonder Jon, do you feel a recently manufactured Brit twin-shock (which runs and rides better than many modern TS machines), is more or less authentic than a modified stock TS or converted mono, and is something that should be allowed to be ridden in the P65 class?

Without rules the answer to that question is down to your own personal feelings entirely, which may not or may not be based on first hand experience of having actually ridden any of the bikes mentioned.

Seems to me that there is a clear need for rules, as well as classes to cater for machines which obviously fall well outside criteria defining what is or what isnt a P65 or TS bike.

[Jon V8]

And as I am sick of saying - the lack of fixed rules means that clubs can set their own rules to suit local riders.I really like the fact that the only people that I have to say no to is those people who admit to being younger than 50 and want to ride a mono.(They get reminded its a Classic club,there are plenty of modern clubs locally)Everyone else I can say yes to,which is great.
Elsewhere in the country where clubs do have problems as they see them,they set their own classes,look here; http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/top ... _britshock
What you are suggesting would force countrywide rules,which we DONT need.
The big problem you are going to have is getting support for your new club or association,very few people will take on club duties.Start forcing loads of rules on them and they will walk away.The only reason I took on running bath Classic is because nobody else would do it.Put a load of rules and regs in front of me and I'm gone.While I can organise an event with minimal rules where people can enjoy old bikes,I'll keep going.

[Twinshock200]

I don't wish to be rude but why don't JonV8 and FM350 have your little differences of opinion on trials.central and maybe the followers over there will join or oppose you both. I speak for myself but I reckon a few Aussies will also agree that you are both getting on our t*ts, this is an Aussie website and we are not interested in what happens in the friggin' Bath classic.
I do actually agree with one statement and that was that Aussie needs an organisation that caters for Twinshock and Classic riders because at the moment the severity of sections for these bikes in a mixed, modern & oldies trial, is such that the average rider is not bothering to dust the old bike off and have a go.
I think some people have also forgotten that Classic riders can go wherever they like in a section and doing Clubman lines seems to have started in Qld some years ago by consensus agreement between them at the start of each event, there are no rules that state they have to do Clubman lines. Since then the Clubman (white)lines are catering for the superb steering, suspenion and braking of the modern bikes and have been getting evermore difficult but Twinshocks and Classic machinery have basically not changed.
I don't really think some organisers want to put themselves out to cater for about 2 classic bikes and 5 twinshocks in a mixed event so the answer is up to the riders to either get together and start new clubs, new organisation or get out and put on T/S, Classic and lower grade rider events.

Before anybody tells me to get off my arse and do it they should know that I am indisposed at the moment but it is definitely on my agenda and anybody who knows me will also know that I do get off my arse.
Twinshock200