2015 Proposed rule changes

[JC1]

Hi John after speaking to you on Friday ,I know your heart is in the right place ,but the only thing we are doing is moving the problem along by 3 years.There are way to many bikes in the 1968 to 69 70 cross over .if we a having trouble now trying to work out what's in or out now ,it will be like a street fight boots an all. There are still plenty on pre 65 classic's around ,just the parts are getting harder to get . Every body complains about the UK scene,i would love to go to a trial when there is 120 plus riders on classic's ,modded or not . They seem to be doing something ok ,there are blokes making and earning a living out of making pre 65 period parts . Go pre 65 class tony bax

Yes Tony, it's always good to chat, as it was at Conondale. I’m a great believer in discussing things. The group who volunteered to discuss rule changes did just that. They are very experienced men & most of the likely issues were thought of, raised & discussed freely, tho that doesn't mean we've found the perfect solution nor does it guarantee success.

I wouldn't have thought that anybody could realistically conclude that “the only thing we are doing is moving the problem along by 3 years". That's a bit of hyperbole (gross exaggeration), which is like water off a duck’s back. The main thing the proposed changes do is to ‘raise the sails to catch more wind’; ie broaden the base, the appeal, the supply pool of available machinery that is in short supply. Extending the cut-off date (& removing exclusion for country of manufacture) is merely the means of doing that.

Having said that, you are right that every cut-off date has difficulties. As the instigator of “Pre65” freely acknowledges (ie Deryk Wylde - see “Why Pre65?” thread), the pre65 cut-off suits heavyweights perfectly since no heavyweight was produced after 64, but it doesn’t remotely suit lightweights, most of which continued later into the 60s - many with visually distinguishable major components which make them ineligible for pre65. The Greeves Anglian, points-in-sidecover C15s, B40s & Bantams, later Cottons (Villiers-engined)& probably the square-fin Cubs are good examples.

If you can give us specific examples of problem bikes for the pre68 cut-off, then the issue becomes nothing more than a challenge waiting for a solution via appropriate research/discussion. Otherwise it is just persuasive argument using vague generalities which is about as useful as taking coal to Newcastle.

As indicated earlier, we are in the process of establishing a list of eligible models/parts for both pre65 & Pre68, including flow-ons, that could become guide-lines available on TA website if the proposed changes to the rules are approved.

Here is a ‘taste’ (early draft) that is by no means final.

NB. See later post down the page (Nov 27) for a more comprehensive list

Pre65:
extra Spanish models allowable:

Bultaco 4sp models to 175/200: eg Tralla, Sherpa N & S, Matador, Campera, Mercurio
Derbi 125/Super, 250/Super & Militar
Lube 125 & 250 (NSU engined)
Montesa 4sp to 175; eg Impala, Comando, Sport, Cross
Mymsa 125, 175
Ossa 4sp 160, 160T & GT, Tourismo 175 (OHV)
Sanglas 100 Sport (Zundapp-engined)

Others:
AJS 16C
Ariel HT3/5
BMW R26, R27
BSA Goldie, C15 & B40 distributor models, Bantam to D7
Butler Trials, Tempest, Fury & Spitfire
Cotton Trials, Trials Special, Starmaker Trials(NOT Minarelli-engined or mid 70s DMW-engined Javelin model)
CZ/Jawa round case 4sp models(eg Type 470, 475) & banana-framed 250 ISDT (Type 652)
DMW up to Mk17 Trials & Mk18/Mk18D MX (NOT mid-70s DMW engined model)
Dot Villiers-engined models, eg Trials Marshall & Works Rep
Ducati narrow-case to 250 (NOT wide-case or Desmo)
Francis Barnett AMC or Villiers-engined models, eg Falcon Trials 83, 85 & 93
Gilera 150/175 OHV Sport/Rossa
Greeves Prospect & Scottish (ie to TFS)
Guzzi Stornello 125 OHV 4sp models (160 4sp flow-on?), 235/250 Lodola (OHC)
HJH any
Hodaka Ace 90 (Ace 100 flow-on?)
Honda C200 & CT200 (OHV 2bolt engines), S90 (OHC 3 bolt), 125/150 Benly (CL90, CD90Z & Daelim90 flow-on?)
Husky 250 4sp round case, bolt-up frame
James AMC & Villiers engined models, eg Commando L25T, M25T
Maico 150/175/250 oval barrel, single downtube frame
Matchless G3C/LC
Morini 175 OHV models (eg Tresette)
MZ ES125/150/175/250/300 & ES175/250G
Norman any
Norton 500T
Parilla any, eg 175 Fox Sport & 250 GS
Puch 175/250 split single models (also sold as Sears)
RE Crusader & Bullet (including India Bullets that are visually indistinguishable)
Sachs/Hercules 4sp models to K175
Scorpion
Sprite Villiers/Cub-engined models (NOT Sachs/Zundapp/Hodaka/Sprite-engined)
Sun any
Tandon any
TWN 250 split-single models, eg Cornet
Triumph round-fin & oval-fin Cubs, & 350/500 twin, eg 3TA/5TA
Velocette LE, Venom, Viper
WSK M150
Yamaha YA2 125 (Trailmaster?)
Zundapp 4sp models to 250

Pre68:

BSA any C15, C25, B40 or Bantam; any B25 to 1970. NOT new frame, hubs & forks (4 stud) on 71ff models (eg B25SS & T)
Bultaco M10 & M27 Sherpa 250, Mk2 Lobito, Campera & Sherpa S, Mk3 Matador (round case, round barrel engines/models)
Cheetah Cub/Villiers/Husky
Cotton Trials 37A (NOT Minarelli-engined models or DMW-engined Javelin model of mid-70s)
CZ Competition 125,175, 250 & 350 single port square-case engines, Type972/971/970/973 I think
DMW Highlander (Cotton frame, Villiers 37A engine) NOT mid-70s DMW-engined model
Dot Villiers-engined (NOT Minarelli-engined models)
Ducati narrow-case to 350. NOT Wide-case or Desmo models
Elstar Trials
Firefly Cub/Villiers/Greeves/C15/C25
Garelli KL150 OHV Gladiator
Greeves Wessex & Anglian (to TJS), NOT Pathfinder
Guzzi Stornello 160 4sp; maybe 175 5sp model if earlier engine cases used (175 Stornello sidecovers are not "visually indistinguishable")
Honda CT90 dual-range, C90, CD/CL90, (NOT SL90 except engine), CA160, CB160, CL160, CA/CD175 'sloper' engines (CB/CL175 'Sloper' Flow-on?)
Husky oval-case 4sp 250 & 360, bolt-up frame
Jawa 350 ISDT Type 653 banana-framed (250 Type 652 available in ‘64)
Kawasaki D1 100, C1/C2 120, B1 125 (later called KC125), B8 150, F1/F2 175 (F3 flow-on?)
Laverda 150 OHV Sport/Trail. (Regalorita Corsa?) American Eagle 150 Renegade flow-on?
Maico GS/MC175-250-360 oval or square-barrel, ie early double-cradle frame models with round tank; X3/X4 I think. NOT X4A
Montesa Texas/Kenya 175, Trial 250 (11M), Impala/Diablo/LaCross/Cappra33M/Scorpion 250 (NOT King Scorpion)
MZ ES/ETS 175 & 250 Series2 engines & G models
Ossa 175 Sport, 4sp 230 Sport, Enduro, Scrambler, Wildfire & Pluma/Pennine/Plonker (NOT 5sp models)
Puch M125 4sp, also sold as Sears Allstate SR125 (175 engine maybe flow-on)
Saracen Bantam/Cub (NOT Sachs-engined models)
Sapphire Trials
Sprite Villiers-engined (NOT Sachs, Zundapp, Hodaka or Sprite-engined models)
Suzuki B100/120P, B105 Bearcat, KT120 (dual-range), A100
Triumph square-fin Cub, TR25 to 1970, 500 twin. NOT new frame, (4 stud) forks & hubs on 71ff eg T25SS & T models
Wasp RT4 Bultaco/Bantam/C15/Cub/Villiers/Triumph-twin engined models
White Tornado 250
WSK 175 MR16, square-case engine
Yamaha L2C & L5T Trailmaster 100s, YA6-125
Zundapp 100 spine-framed (maybe 125)


Please, everyone, look through those lists & tell us anything that needs correcting.

[Twinshock200]

John, one small correction for the Pre65 list from my area of expertise ie. tiger Cubs.
There were three types of barrel fitted to Cubs during its period of production, it all started with the round barrel up to 1960 and then they fitted the oval barrel up to 1964 followed, on production bikes for 1965, the square barrel although I know that some of the works bikes in late 1964 had the square barrel fitted, (please don't anyone start this square barrel argument again, I've given up on it )
Round and/or oval barrels should be acceptable for Pre65 Cubs
RG

[JC1]

Thanks Roger; I have ammended the list.


An update on allowable mods for Speicals explained above: what I have described above is visible mods that would be allowed for Specials. Internal mods to major components like porting, forks, gearbox are also allowed, as before.

I will ammend the post above to clarify this.

[JC1]

I have been waiting to ask this question and you touched on it during your last reply.

In regards to the eligibility.

How will this be judged
Will the bike be accepted until eligibility Is questioned??
Or
Will the rider have to prove eligibility before even being accepted?
Will all bikes currently accepted/compete have to prove there eligibility not just future bikes?

I have heard in the past people use the " it's been accepted in the past, why wouldn't it it be now.

The other thing is if the evidence is proven ahead of the event and the bike is accepted, then the scrutineer deems it unsuitable what would happen then?

The main thing I'm very interested in finding out is what will the consistency of the scrutinneering marshal be? How much classic knowledge do they have?
Will they be able to provide a professional opinion/verdict without any outside criticism from other competitors?
Will the have be able to have a neutral opinion towards people either if they are friends or not?

I'm just concerned as at the moment it can be very inconsistent with the classic class. Especially if the scruitineer is good mates with some riders, and some riders don't seem to get along.
In my experience this happens a lot, I've seen a bike pass issue free, then a rider come up and questioned the scruitineer, then all sorts of questions have been asked. Then the rider said "I'll keep an eye out during the event and see what they get up to, and let you know".

I'm just asking as being someone excluded in the past, I'd like to avoid any of this nonsense when I come to ride in the future.

I understand there will be teething issue at the start, hopefully they wouldn't be to bad.
I think the idea of a registry keeping track of mods and bikes is going to be a great idea and I would like to see it happen.
If you are serious and following the rules you shouldn't have anything to hide, if there's nothing to hide there shouldn't be any reason why you cannot tell all competitors/marshals what you have done.

Allan,
Nothing in the proposals changes how the system works to determine any eligibility in trials. I think many of your questions will be answered if we think through that system. As I understand it, assessment of eligiblility is a 4-tier process:

First tier; the rider assesses. He does his homework beforehand, chooses his bike/parts/modifications according to the MOMS/rules & presents his bike for scrutineering. If there is anything ‘questionable’ he would be wise to have evidence; ie substantiated evidence like dated magazines/advertisements, dated manufacturer's brochure/literature, dated receipts etc. Heresay is not solid evidence, nor is wikepedia, ebay, bikepics, flikr etc.

Second tier; the Scrutineer assesses. He has the right on the day to reject anything he considers contrary to the MOMS/rules. The rider has the right to present whatever evidence he thinks fit to support his case, &if it is solid evidence he should have little reason to be apprehensive.

Third tier; other competitors assess. Any competitor on the day has the right to protest the eligibility of another machine, according to the MOMS/rules; eg if he thinks some eligibility issue has been overlooked. I would think a protester needs more than just hearsay or opinion to mount a worthwhile protest. He has the right to present evidence in support of his protest.

Fourth & final tier; the powers-that-be decide. Based on the MOMS/rules & whatever evidence/expertise is available. The rider & protester still have the right to present their case supported by whatever evidence they think fit. Unsubstantiated opinion is not fact; evidence carries far more weight.

At every tier, the basis of each assesment/judgement should be the MOMS/rules defining what is eligible together with the evidence available.

No system is foolproof or infallible. People are still human & mistakes will be made till the end of time. But that’s a pretty good system of checks & balances. Of course it’s been in place for decades & nothing in the proposal changes any of it.


As to consistency, different Scrutineers/officials will be more informed than others regarding classics – that’s life - but the moves to have guidelines readily available on the TA website is intended to enhance consistency of decisions at every tier. If the proposed changes are approved, it wouldn’t be too difficult to email such guidelines to every Club in Oz, asking they be brought to the attention of Scrutineers, Clerks of the Course, local MA Officials etc.

Those guidelines are taking shape along these lines:

P65 Classic; eligible models
P65 Classic; eligible flow-ons (models/parts)
P68 Special; eligible models
P68 Special; eligible flow-ons (models/parts)
P68 Special; eligible aftermarket frames

Such guidelines would not be set in stone. They would be contestable by any substantiated evidence presented to the contrary. But it is likely over time that they will evolve into something with some authority if they are seen to be accurate & not discredited.


As to precedent, ie whether or not a bike has been accepted in the past, that is no guarantee as history shows. As you well know, an M10 winning an Oz title did not stop it subsequently being excluded. Same for a Cub with a ‘62/63 Kiehin carb. If the proposed rules are accepted, & if what has been already said on here is true, then some of the bikes formerly accepted as Pre65 may well have to go into Specials class I would think, but I can’t answer that (haven’t seen any of the bikes in question).


As to ‘proof before acceptance’ I would think that any machine would be accepted if it is “beyond reasonable doubt” & the rider would only have to prove eligibility before being accepted if the Scrutineer has good grounds to doubt eligibility or a previous protest has been upheld & there’s no sign the rider has corrected it. Best to be sure by staying well within the rules & the evidence/expertise available.

But as a precautionary measure one would be well advised when building a Classis/Special to log the build/modifications & take it with you along with whatever documentation/evidence you have. If anything is questionable it's the rider's responsibility to prove its eligibility. If he can’t prove it he should refrain from doing it. Simple. If there is nothing questionable there is nothing to fear.

Your last sentence says it all:
“If you are serious and following the rules you shouldn't have anything to hide, if there's nothing to hide there shouldn't be any reason why you cannot tell all competitors/marshals what you have done.”

It is surely to be hoped that it never goes beyond the first tier, & it shouldn't if the rider has done his homework. One would also hope that a bit of grace would be shown to newcomers who show up for the first ride with something that may not be quite legal, & that he be kindly shown what needs to be corrected before his next ride.

[brt650]

Just been thinking about this Specials class does it mean some lunatic can go out and buy any old pre 68 Bultaco, or whatever, chop him up into some trials contraption and compete on it because if you can at least someone will

Dam you Brownie,
Are you reading my mind? Whoops I think I have already done that on a later bike.
Cheers
Brian

[brownie]

Dam you Brownie,
Are you reading my mind? Whoops I think I have already done that on a later bike.
Cheers
Brian

Knowing you Brian you probably have some poor old Pre68 in your laboratory already just working out how you can shrink the into it

[JC1]

Gents,

We received an email from MA yesterday, basically confirming that the proposed rule changes for Classic Trials have received final approval, including the removal of clause iii) under Post Classic (Twinshock). You might remember that clause wasn't removed when they posted the proposed rule changes on their website, but with further discussion they confirmed that clause will be deleted, as per the original proposal put to MA. One hopes that's how it eventuates. We'll see when they post the 2015 MOMS on their site.

[David Lahey]

Well done John thankyou

[JC1]

A few of us have put together the list below of likely eligible models for Pre65 Classic Trials under the new rules for 2015. These are guidelines only (not rules) to assist potential builders (& perhaps scrutineers).

A fair bit of research has gone into the list, but it is not meant to be set in concrete. If any are doubtful, please don't hesitate to let us know & we'll investigate further.

Pre65 CLASSIC - Eligible Models Guidelines, ie models "available to the public before 1 Jan 1965" :
(These lists are not necessarily exhaustive)

British:

AJS, any OHV single, eg 16C
Ariel , any single, eg Colt, HT3/5; plus Arrow 200/250 twin
BSA, any pre-unit models, eg Goldie; plus C15 & B40 distributor models & Bantam to D7
Butler Trials; Tempest, Fury (Parkinson) & Spitfire (Starmaker)
Cotton Trials, Trials Special, (NOT Minarelli-engined or mid 70s DMW-engined Javelin)
DMW up to Mk17 Trials & Mk18/Mk18D MX (NOT mid-70s DMW engined model)
Dot, any Villiers-engined models, eg Trials Marshall & Works Rep
Douglas, any eg Dragonfly 350
Francis Barnett, any AMC or Villiers-engined models, eg Falcon Trials 83, 85 & 93
Greeves Prospect & Scottish (ie to TFS)
James, any AMC & Villiers engined models, eg Commando L25T, M25T, M16
Matchless, any OHV single eg G3C/LC
Norman, any eg B2C & B4C
Norton ES2, 500T etc
OEC, any eg C1, C2, ST3
RE OHV singles, eg Crusader & Bullet
Scorpion Trials
Sprite Villiers/Cub-engined models (NOT Sachs/Zundapp/Hodaka/Sprite-engined)
Sun, any eg Wasp (not to be confused with later Wasp RT4 from Rhind-Tutt)
Tandon, any eg Kangaroo, Imp, Scrambler
Triumph round-fin & oval-fin Cubs; 350/500 twin, eg 3TA/5TA
Villiers engines including 8E, 9E, 10E, 32A, 37A, Starmaker & DMW versions
Villiers alloy top-end conversions including Ajax, Greeves, DOT, DMW, Marcell, Parkinson, Vale Onslow
Velocette Venom, Viper , LE 200

German:

Adler M125/150/200, MB250
BMW R25, R26 & R27 250
DKW RT175, 200 & 250
Horex Regina 250, 350 & 400; Resident 250 & 350
Hercules, 4sp Sachs-engined models, eg K100 to K103 (100/125cc) & K175 (175cc)
Maico M150/175/200/250 oval barrel, single down-tube frame, eg M250 Blizzard/Sport/Bundeswehr, Scrambler & Enduro
MZ ES125/150/175/250/300 & ES175/250G
NSU 100 Fox, 125 Super Fox; 175 Maxi; 200 Lux, Super Lux; 250 Max,Gelande Max, Supermax; 300
Sachs 4sp models only, eg K100 to K103 (100/125cc) & K175 (same as Hercules)
TWN 250 split-piston models, eg Cornet
Zundapp 4sp models to 250, eg 200S & Challenger, 250 Super Sabre, KS100 (type 514), GS/KS 75

Italian:

Aermacchi 175 Ala Rossa, 250 Ala Verde/Bianca
Bianchi 125 & 175 eg Bernina, Mendola, Cervino, Tonale; also M61 Military
Benelli 175 OHV Turismo, Sport, S
Ducati Cadet/Mountaineer 90; narrow-case OHC singles to 250 (NOT wide-case or Desmo models)
Gilera 150/175 OHV Sport/Rossa
Guzzi 125 Stornello OHV 4sp; 175 & 235/250 Lodola (OHC) 4sp
Italjet-MZ 125 Junior Sport (MZ 4sp engine)
Morini OHV 125/150 Corsaro/GT; OHV 175 Tresette/Sprint & GT/Briscola; OHV 250 Settebello 2 (maybe only 4sp models)
Motobi 125/175 Catria
MV Augusta ‘50s/’60s 125/150/175 (4 stroke), 250 Raid
Parilla any, eg 175 Fox Sport & 250 GS, Wildcat etc

Japanese:

Bridgestone 90
Hodaka Ace 90 (4speed engine)
Honda C100/105 (all variants with 50/55cc OHV 2bolt engines), C200 & CT200 (all variants with 90cc OHV 2bolt engines); S65 (65cc OHC 2bolt engine); S90 (90cc OHC 3 bolt engine); C/CA/CB/CS92 Benly ‘sloper’ twins (NOT later SS/CD/CB/CL125 sloper twins); CA95 Benly sloper twin; (NOT vertical twins)
Kawasaki B8 125
Suzuki K10/K11 80
Yamaha, any YG1 (80s); YA 125 (up to YA6), YAT-1 125; YC175

Spanish:

Bultaco 4sp models to 175/200: M1 to M9, eg Tralla, Sherpa N & S, Matador, Campera, Mercurio
Derbi 125 Super & Especiale
Lube 125, 150 & 250 (NSU engined)
Montesa 4sp to 175; eg Impala, Comando, Sport (model prefix 2M, 3M, 4M, 6M)
Mototrans; see Ducati
Ossa 125/B/C; 4sp 160, 160T & GT; Gran Tourismo 175 (OHV)
Sanglas 100 Sport (Zundapp-engined)

Other:

CZ/Jawa round case 3 or 4sp models (eg Type 470, 475) & banana-framed 250 ISDT (Type 652)
Harley 125/165/175 2T models, eg Hummer, Super 10, Ranger, Pacer
Husky 250 4sp round case, bolt-up frame
KTM 125 Trophy
Motobecane 175 Zs
Puch TF250 & any split-piston model, eg 150, 175 & 250
Tempo 125/150/175 4sp Sachs engine
WSK M150

Potential Flow-on models – These may be eligible for Pre65 (NB Must check all major components are "visually indistinguishable" from those available before 1965):

Bridgestone 100 maybe?
Bultaco 4sp models to 200cc; eg Saturno, Lobito, Junior, Senior (eg M12,13, 19 to 22 etc)
Daelim CL90 (copy of eligible Honda 90)
Guzzi Stornello 160 4sp maybe?
Harley 175 Scat
Honda CL90, CD90Z (with 3 bolt engines), CT90K0 frame only (it's same as CT200 frame), C65 frame (same as C100 frame)
Kawasaki B8 150 probably
Montesa 4sp 175 models, eg Kenya/Texas/Cross/Enduro 175s; 8M, 12M, 14M, some 13Ms (ie 175s); probably Impala2 (minus the 7 spoke cast wheels).
Ossa 160T2 & T2/72; 4sp 175 Sport/SE /Trail probably; NOT 230/250 models
Indian built Enfield Bullets probably
Suzuki K15 Hill Billy/Trail 80
Yamaha YGS-1 (80); YA7 125;

NB Edited slightly 1/12/14 & 9/12/14

Hopefully another list for Pre68 Classic/Special will be posted in due course too

[A.Phillipson]

A few of us have put together the list below of likely eligible models for Pre65 Classic Trials under the new rules for 2015. These are guidelines only to assist potential builders (& perhaps scrutineers).

Flow-on models – These may be eligible for Pre65 (NB Must check all major components):

Bultaco 4sp models to 200cc; eg Saturno, Lobito, Junior, Senior; M12,13, 15, 16, 19 to 22, 32 to 38

What do you mean with flow on models?
Isn't the cut off date 31st December 1964?
Some might be accepted depending on components?

What I don't understand is the models after the M10 are accepted, yet the M10 isn't. The only thing would seem that because the others are 200cc or below.
There is no current rule for capacity. When has this come in?

I found this;
M10-1964-1967
M12-1964-1966
M16-1965-1967
M19-1966-1969
M22-1966-1974
M32-1967-1969
M33-1967-1971
M34-1966-1971

From this it would mean that only the M12 would be the only model that could potentially be used in classic, that would also be depending on its frame/engine number. If it was an early production model the engine/frame numbers would be very low.