Smiddy,
Not calling the kettle black here, just using examples that I know.
I notice that you said nothing about David Knight coming out for the A4DE, a one off event, thrashing the pants off the Aussies and then heading back to Europe??????
Guys that rode the A4DE from my Club this year were stoked to be able to meet the man, pick his brains about enduros, all while getting their collective butts kicked by him. I didn't hear one of them say it wasn't fair that he was the individual winner of the Australian Enduro Championships.
I am also sure that if the geography of the world was a bit different than it is guys like Mladin and Reed would still live in Aus and travel to each event. I have talked to Glen Richards, who lives in England and is a former junior trials rider here in SA, and he would love to be living in Australia, but distance, the drain it would be mentally and physically, and the cost factor of having to then fly to Europe every week or two makes it virtually impossible.
Could you imagine Mitch and Boyd doing it this year? The cost factor alone would have made it impossible for them.
If any of my examples were a bit off the mark, I do apologise, but I was using examples (Dougie Lampkin) that were readily available. But as I said I will never be able to have a crack at an Aussie Open Solo Title so my ramblings really don't mean much. Lets hear from the guys it will affect - the experts.
Cheers and see you at SA Trials Week 2007 in October
Outfit
Australian Champion V’s European Australian Champion
Moderator: Moderators
Outfit,
Fair call about David, I hadn't commented but it's a similar situation with when we get WTC competitors down here, however was it a one-off situation or has it happened in Enduro a few times as it has in Trials? Particularly here, where we compete alongside the best the nation has to offer week in and week out, I'd personally ride harder to make an impression on the current champion if I knew he was watching! I might have made Expert by now rather than being a weekend hack-of-an-A-Grader! (Well I can dream, anyway...). I'd reckon the up-and-coming junior riders would really put in huge efforts if they had someone with that label there, kids (and me) being impressionable and all...
The big deal for me is that there is only a handful of resident Australian champions that still ride at the pinnacle. Tom's one who certainly has the potential to win the championships, however could have a title taken from him because of the visit of an international rider and potentially be spoiled the chance of having the crowning glory.
I simply feel the greater good would be for the Aussie to be awarded the namesake; yes it's just a title, but it certainly is a matter of pride. Ideally we'd have a national series as most countries do to enable our top riders to compete against one-another more regularly, but due to the current climate it's just unfeasible.
Particularly if we want to improve the profile of the sport, it would be justified to be able to turn to promoters / sponsors and be able to say "The current Australian Champion will be in attendance".
To be honest it isn't a huge problem at the moment as recently it's only been the Supertrial year that has seen the title hear off-shore (and that did bucketloads for the sport, so it was a positive in this regard anyway!), but there is still the potential for the championships to be dominated in the future.
Fair call about David, I hadn't commented but it's a similar situation with when we get WTC competitors down here, however was it a one-off situation or has it happened in Enduro a few times as it has in Trials? Particularly here, where we compete alongside the best the nation has to offer week in and week out, I'd personally ride harder to make an impression on the current champion if I knew he was watching! I might have made Expert by now rather than being a weekend hack-of-an-A-Grader! (Well I can dream, anyway...). I'd reckon the up-and-coming junior riders would really put in huge efforts if they had someone with that label there, kids (and me) being impressionable and all...
The big deal for me is that there is only a handful of resident Australian champions that still ride at the pinnacle. Tom's one who certainly has the potential to win the championships, however could have a title taken from him because of the visit of an international rider and potentially be spoiled the chance of having the crowning glory.
I simply feel the greater good would be for the Aussie to be awarded the namesake; yes it's just a title, but it certainly is a matter of pride. Ideally we'd have a national series as most countries do to enable our top riders to compete against one-another more regularly, but due to the current climate it's just unfeasible.
Particularly if we want to improve the profile of the sport, it would be justified to be able to turn to promoters / sponsors and be able to say "The current Australian Champion will be in attendance".
To be honest it isn't a huge problem at the moment as recently it's only been the Supertrial year that has seen the title hear off-shore (and that did bucketloads for the sport, so it was a positive in this regard anyway!), but there is still the potential for the championships to be dominated in the future.
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chris_beta
- Junior participant
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:58 am
Now I haven't read all the posts so this may have come up already
Coming from a rider who has entered Open Solo and rides to a mid to low expert standard I am both for and against Euro riders coming to the aussie titles
Obviously the euro riders bring more spectators, and enable the riders to judge themselves against the top riders of the world
However, while we all love watching them, the aussie Open solo riders find the sections REALLY HARD because these Euro riders push up the difficulty of the sections. For the top five Aussie riders the sections are still managable, but for the rest of the field its often a matter of paddling your way through for a three.
In short tHe australian titles should have australian standard sections so the majority of open solo riders have a half decent day
Coming from a rider who has entered Open Solo and rides to a mid to low expert standard I am both for and against Euro riders coming to the aussie titles
Obviously the euro riders bring more spectators, and enable the riders to judge themselves against the top riders of the world
However, while we all love watching them, the aussie Open solo riders find the sections REALLY HARD because these Euro riders push up the difficulty of the sections. For the top five Aussie riders the sections are still managable, but for the rest of the field its often a matter of paddling your way through for a three.
In short tHe australian titles should have australian standard sections so the majority of open solo riders have a half decent day
Australian Champion vs European Australian Champion
Gmandas, I don't mean to be rude here but did you really read all the posts? Cause I can't find a single one that says we don't want the internationals. In fact, quite the opposite. I think Whoopachang commented that we haven't progressed on the international level since the supertrial and why haven't we? Do we have to wait for another Gary Grealy to come along and do it for us? Why can't we use our national competition to run an international section? All the infrastructure is in place to run the event - it is just adding another class and getting behind the extra promotion, and maybe extra liaising with MA. This will encourage more and more to come and put us on the map. Why not - Australian Champion, Australasian Champion and Australian Open classes? All run at the same event over the same sections to gauge a comparison. It may only mean a trophy but the follow-on effect for all those involved is vastly different.
You obviously are not an expert rider who is effected by these decisions. What is "good for the sport" is highlighting our own riders to the Australian community AND promoting international interest. It needs to be done for both if the sport is ever to gain more recognition. For each and ever international rider that sets foot in the country, the PR machine needs to start rolling, not just pretend they are one of ours for the day.
Again, no-on has said "Don't bring em on" and I hope none other readers have this impression!
You obviously are not an expert rider who is effected by these decisions. What is "good for the sport" is highlighting our own riders to the Australian community AND promoting international interest. It needs to be done for both if the sport is ever to gain more recognition. For each and ever international rider that sets foot in the country, the PR machine needs to start rolling, not just pretend they are one of ours for the day.
Again, no-on has said "Don't bring em on" and I hope none other readers have this impression!
Gmandas,
No-one said you can't have your opinion known if you're not an Expert. Indeed, I'd suggest parents and juniors should let what they feel be known in particular, as to whether they would prefer a potentially higher International attendance, or the guarantee of a home-grown Champion each year, as to whether it will inspire them to get better. After all, they have a longer riding future than many of the current Experts. I'd love to know what the kids think in particular. I'd reckon my argument would lose!
Nobody has suggested we deny international riders entry to the event. On the contrary, it is easily the best event to invite riders to, and I firmly believe they will still come across for the trial, being the biggest by far on our calendar.
Chris makes a valid point. I rode the titles in 2004 and struggled massively (even more than normal!), even after the brochure described the section ramping they would be using. The idea when setting a titles event is to have some sections at a hard A-Grade level, then ramp them up to a very hard Expert level in order to spread the entire field, rather than killing the stragglers and causing the top guys to lose too many points. Luckily for me, the second day was reasonably manageable, but not after taking a huge toll on all the A-Graders on the Saturday.
The point is though, if the sections continue to be aimed squarely at the top guys for the whole loop, all that ends up happening is an entirely Expert field (Sub-15 entrants) with increasing difficulty in breaking into Expert. C-Graders have a firm belief that the step from C+ to B is the most difficult; you can't comment until you try riding A or Expert for the first time!!!
In short, Rocco's hit the nail on the head again; we should entice internationals all we can, but the Aussie Champ should be an Aussie, just to keep it in-house as many (most?) other sports do.
No-one said you can't have your opinion known if you're not an Expert. Indeed, I'd suggest parents and juniors should let what they feel be known in particular, as to whether they would prefer a potentially higher International attendance, or the guarantee of a home-grown Champion each year, as to whether it will inspire them to get better. After all, they have a longer riding future than many of the current Experts. I'd love to know what the kids think in particular. I'd reckon my argument would lose!
Nobody has suggested we deny international riders entry to the event. On the contrary, it is easily the best event to invite riders to, and I firmly believe they will still come across for the trial, being the biggest by far on our calendar.
Chris makes a valid point. I rode the titles in 2004 and struggled massively (even more than normal!), even after the brochure described the section ramping they would be using. The idea when setting a titles event is to have some sections at a hard A-Grade level, then ramp them up to a very hard Expert level in order to spread the entire field, rather than killing the stragglers and causing the top guys to lose too many points. Luckily for me, the second day was reasonably manageable, but not after taking a huge toll on all the A-Graders on the Saturday.
The point is though, if the sections continue to be aimed squarely at the top guys for the whole loop, all that ends up happening is an entirely Expert field (Sub-15 entrants) with increasing difficulty in breaking into Expert. C-Graders have a firm belief that the step from C+ to B is the most difficult; you can't comment until you try riding A or Expert for the first time!!!
In short, Rocco's hit the nail on the head again; we should entice internationals all we can, but the Aussie Champ should be an Aussie, just to keep it in-house as many (most?) other sports do.
Having competed in the Australian Championships every year since 1990 I have seen and experienced many different ways the Championships have been run. In 1994 I was competing in the Junior Championship and although I knew who Grahme Jarvis was and that he was competing on the Open Solo sections I did not see him ride and I gained no benefit from his attendance.
Yes it’s great to watch a professional rider do what he/she does best but I believe the real gains are to be made through trials schools and practice sessions. I believe we have enough highly skilled trials riders currently residing in the country to assist with the trials schools and that the riders who should benefit the most from the World Championship contenders teaching is the Australian Experts. This way the experts can then teach their own techniques with the European techniques to a much larger part of the trials community rather than limit the teaching to the few who are able to attend the euro schools.
Gmandas asks, “outside our community; how well known are our top riders?”
Speaking from experience I can tell you that you would be surprised how many people have heard my name and know who I am and what I have accomplished. I continually meet new people in the motorcycle industry who immediately recognize me for my competition results and various other activities that I do to promote Moto-Trials in Australia. Without various good Australian Championship results I would not be known at all.
For me the 2004 Australian Championship sections were near perfect. They were on the tough side but that’s what is needed to sort out the riders at the top. I was happy to finally ride an Australian titles event where you could drop a 5 and not lose the event from the one section. Recently at the NSW titles, I fell off section 6 on the third lap and immediately I knew I lost the event. I believe the open solo line should be hard enough that if you do drop just the one 5, that your not out of the running for the title. Experts ride hard all year to be challenged at the Aussie Titles, from experience I can tell you that it is very disappointing and frustrating to travel interstate and ride an event that the top 5 all score under 10 points for the day. I don’t believe this gives a true representation of our rider’s ability. Just yesterday Laia Sains broke the tape on one section and lost the entire World Championship.
I have always been a supporter of having international guests riding over here with us. I believe it’s the best place for the expert riders to learn, ie with their own bikes and all their equipment. But
I, more than anyone can express my disappointment in receiving the “Best Australian Award”, 2003 and 2005. I felt cheated to compete and train all year just to be beaten by professional World Championship contenders and although I received an award stating “Best Placed Australian” people only remember the results from the podium. I think of my result in 2005 as my worst result in an Australian championship since 1997 which was my second year competing in the Open Solo class. (6th in “97”).
I believe all international guests should ride the same lines as the Australians and New Zealanders but have a separate grade on the scoreboard. As already suggested have an international class so everyone still gets to watch the international riders, compare there scores against ours, but an Australasian takes the honors at the end of the day. This gives the Australian competitors something to aim for and junior competitors an achievable goal. When we are forced to compete with professional trials riders, once a year, then the overall result will be more detrimental than good in relation to promoting Australian riders within Australia and Internationally. Without promotion, our sport will not grow and attract new sponsors. Without sponsors we would have even less expert riders in our country.
Yes it’s great to watch a professional rider do what he/she does best but I believe the real gains are to be made through trials schools and practice sessions. I believe we have enough highly skilled trials riders currently residing in the country to assist with the trials schools and that the riders who should benefit the most from the World Championship contenders teaching is the Australian Experts. This way the experts can then teach their own techniques with the European techniques to a much larger part of the trials community rather than limit the teaching to the few who are able to attend the euro schools.
Gmandas asks, “outside our community; how well known are our top riders?”
Speaking from experience I can tell you that you would be surprised how many people have heard my name and know who I am and what I have accomplished. I continually meet new people in the motorcycle industry who immediately recognize me for my competition results and various other activities that I do to promote Moto-Trials in Australia. Without various good Australian Championship results I would not be known at all.
For me the 2004 Australian Championship sections were near perfect. They were on the tough side but that’s what is needed to sort out the riders at the top. I was happy to finally ride an Australian titles event where you could drop a 5 and not lose the event from the one section. Recently at the NSW titles, I fell off section 6 on the third lap and immediately I knew I lost the event. I believe the open solo line should be hard enough that if you do drop just the one 5, that your not out of the running for the title. Experts ride hard all year to be challenged at the Aussie Titles, from experience I can tell you that it is very disappointing and frustrating to travel interstate and ride an event that the top 5 all score under 10 points for the day. I don’t believe this gives a true representation of our rider’s ability. Just yesterday Laia Sains broke the tape on one section and lost the entire World Championship.
I have always been a supporter of having international guests riding over here with us. I believe it’s the best place for the expert riders to learn, ie with their own bikes and all their equipment. But
I, more than anyone can express my disappointment in receiving the “Best Australian Award”, 2003 and 2005. I felt cheated to compete and train all year just to be beaten by professional World Championship contenders and although I received an award stating “Best Placed Australian” people only remember the results from the podium. I think of my result in 2005 as my worst result in an Australian championship since 1997 which was my second year competing in the Open Solo class. (6th in “97”).
I believe all international guests should ride the same lines as the Australians and New Zealanders but have a separate grade on the scoreboard. As already suggested have an international class so everyone still gets to watch the international riders, compare there scores against ours, but an Australasian takes the honors at the end of the day. This gives the Australian competitors something to aim for and junior competitors an achievable goal. When we are forced to compete with professional trials riders, once a year, then the overall result will be more detrimental than good in relation to promoting Australian riders within Australia and Internationally. Without promotion, our sport will not grow and attract new sponsors. Without sponsors we would have even less expert riders in our country.
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gmandas
- Junior participant
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:39 am
- Club: AJS of SA
- Bike: Gasser
- Location: South Oz
Euros vs Aussies
[b]
Thanks Col Zar for putting this argument into perspective from a top rider.
I certainly can't find fault in any of your arguments and I am glad you feel that the sport and individuals have recognition that they thoroughly deserve. But as your last sentence spells out clearly we still need promotion. How we achieve that is the big question? Ultimately, that promotion and value to the sponsors may be best served by Aussie riders vying for an Aussie Crown. So in effect I am reversing my original view and agreeing with the points of Col Zar, Rocco and Smiddy.
Have a good one,
G
Thanks Col Zar for putting this argument into perspective from a top rider.
I certainly can't find fault in any of your arguments and I am glad you feel that the sport and individuals have recognition that they thoroughly deserve. But as your last sentence spells out clearly we still need promotion. How we achieve that is the big question? Ultimately, that promotion and value to the sponsors may be best served by Aussie riders vying for an Aussie Crown. So in effect I am reversing my original view and agreeing with the points of Col Zar, Rocco and Smiddy.
Have a good one,
G