Footing whilst on pegs
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Looks like I am the first expert rider to reply. The way I see it is to keep it as simple as possible for that observer, they should allow the toe or heal to touch as long as some part of the foot does remain on the peg at all times. You must continue to follow the examples of what the Europeans allow. If you were to follow the rule book to the letter then it does put way to much pressure onto the observer with to much room for discrepancy from one rider to the next. In the real world keep it simple but in the rule book im not sure about creating a new rule just for this?
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Ferretflasher
- A grade participant
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:45 am
- Location: grimethorpe, UK
As a 'whinging pom' who has nothing better to do at night but visiy your website, I have to agree with Laugo, dont put anymore demands on the poor old observer. He/she is there for a steady day out, if they then have to decide if the rider is actually 'gaining forward motion with a foot/toe action' etc it becomes too difficult to judge.
Keep it simple chaps---feet on footrests...yes/no?
Trials started out with old Triumphs and exWD Royal Enfields, footing was a simple choice them, just because things have moved on to todays tricks, we dont need to rewrite the book.
FF
Keep it simple chaps---feet on footrests...yes/no?
Trials started out with old Triumphs and exWD Royal Enfields, footing was a simple choice them, just because things have moved on to todays tricks, we dont need to rewrite the book.
FF
FF, your comment about riding the old school trials bikes, you forgot to mention that the rules then were non-stop trials, and so we have moved with the times as we have with modern machinery. Yes the rule book has been rewritten, and can be again.
Simple for the observer: if the foot moves away from the normal riding position when touching - its footing.
Except where the foot is to touch at the normal footed position on the pegs where the inner foot is on the peg. (normal position)
Simple for the observer: if the foot moves away from the normal riding position when touching - its footing.
Except where the foot is to touch at the normal footed position on the pegs where the inner foot is on the peg. (normal position)
I would rather push my twinshock than ride a modern!
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Ferretflasher
- A grade participant
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:45 am
- Location: grimethorpe, UK
I think a rule change would make it more difficult for the observer and then there will be the chance that riders start to argue with an observer over their performance in a section.
It sounds like a recipe for confrontation because how do you differ between an accidental nudge with your toe and a foot-on-pegs toe-down?
The only safe alternative is to state beforehand that a trial is no-stop, then theres no grey areas where someone can aledegly cheat or gain some advantage.
Anyway when I observe club trials, I will usually give a spirited rider the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this. In a national, I would enforce the rule to the book. Lets not start laying down more rules and regulations, especially if the would be difficult to judge.
FF
It sounds like a recipe for confrontation because how do you differ between an accidental nudge with your toe and a foot-on-pegs toe-down?
The only safe alternative is to state beforehand that a trial is no-stop, then theres no grey areas where someone can aledegly cheat or gain some advantage.
Anyway when I observe club trials, I will usually give a spirited rider the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this. In a national, I would enforce the rule to the book. Lets not start laying down more rules and regulations, especially if the would be difficult to judge.
FF
Just to reitereate my original post about this, I was observing at the Australian National Championships and found this form of footing confusing and difficult to rule.
Why, it was seen to be only the expert A Grade riders doing it, emulating what they do in Europe. No other grade was seen to do it in the sections I observed and by what I was told.
Other observers were confronted with the same problem and found it difficult to rule as is it is now, I am not alone on this as it was brought up at both observer meetings at that event, and afterwards.
An example was when the rider was on top of a rock, used his foot to touch the rock with his toe in a downwards angle. His foot was on the other side from where I was standing, it appeared to be footing, but may have been on the peg?? I couldnt see the rest of the boot. I gave him a point for a dab. The rider did question this, but made no protest.
Now if the rider had left his foot in the natural postion, this would have been impossible, so he may have had to dab anyway.
Anyway, I gave the benefit of doubt a couple times that event, you can only call it as you see it. I just dont think this cheat should be continued as it will filter down the grades to club levels and then all observers will be confused, as it is not practiced anywhere that I have seen?
Why, it was seen to be only the expert A Grade riders doing it, emulating what they do in Europe. No other grade was seen to do it in the sections I observed and by what I was told.
Other observers were confronted with the same problem and found it difficult to rule as is it is now, I am not alone on this as it was brought up at both observer meetings at that event, and afterwards.
An example was when the rider was on top of a rock, used his foot to touch the rock with his toe in a downwards angle. His foot was on the other side from where I was standing, it appeared to be footing, but may have been on the peg?? I couldnt see the rest of the boot. I gave him a point for a dab. The rider did question this, but made no protest.
Now if the rider had left his foot in the natural postion, this would have been impossible, so he may have had to dab anyway.
Anyway, I gave the benefit of doubt a couple times that event, you can only call it as you see it. I just dont think this cheat should be continued as it will filter down the grades to club levels and then all observers will be confused, as it is not practiced anywhere that I have seen?
I would rather push my twinshock than ride a modern!
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oztrialrider
- Junior participant
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- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:10 am
where do we want to go?
Like Laugo and our English friends, I believe it would be disappointing and also pretty silly to change AWAY from the way the scoring is done in the world and european events. If additional rules are created to split hairs, it would be another nail in the coffin of the volunteer observer. When running a trial, the hardest thing to get is observers, so to make life harder for them is not the way to go.
It seems Australia needs to decide... do we want to be part of the world trial?? or do we want to have our own little universe.
If we go our own way, we end up like the UK just recently, when they adopted different rules for their events and did not follow the world program... it resulted in all their best riders not participating in events because they didn't help them in the world program. The UK have changed back to follow the world....
So we follow the world program.... the world system copes with the footing rule interpretation, gardening, minders, and all the little problems what come up in any sport where people are honestly trying to do whatever they can to improve their scores. Read the press releases from HOnda, G2F, Gas Gas or Sherco and you will see the top riders all have cause to question the rules and scores throughout the season, but it all comes under a "that's racing" or "that's trials" banner.
Simply, MA, as our national body, and the trials commissioners, the trial community reps to that body, must decided where we want the future of the sport to go..... do we try to be world trial players, ride the rules of the world (including time limits, which surely will change the way our top riders ride the secitons), earn the right to have a world championships round, earn a place in group A at the trial des Nations, and give a chance for those riders who want to dedicate themselves to it an opportunity to become world level riders.....
or do we simply continue to be left behind, and miss out on a moving forward to the chance of a brighter future.
We decide...
Oztrialrider
It seems Australia needs to decide... do we want to be part of the world trial?? or do we want to have our own little universe.
If we go our own way, we end up like the UK just recently, when they adopted different rules for their events and did not follow the world program... it resulted in all their best riders not participating in events because they didn't help them in the world program. The UK have changed back to follow the world....
So we follow the world program.... the world system copes with the footing rule interpretation, gardening, minders, and all the little problems what come up in any sport where people are honestly trying to do whatever they can to improve their scores. Read the press releases from HOnda, G2F, Gas Gas or Sherco and you will see the top riders all have cause to question the rules and scores throughout the season, but it all comes under a "that's racing" or "that's trials" banner.
Simply, MA, as our national body, and the trials commissioners, the trial community reps to that body, must decided where we want the future of the sport to go..... do we try to be world trial players, ride the rules of the world (including time limits, which surely will change the way our top riders ride the secitons), earn the right to have a world championships round, earn a place in group A at the trial des Nations, and give a chance for those riders who want to dedicate themselves to it an opportunity to become world level riders.....
or do we simply continue to be left behind, and miss out on a moving forward to the chance of a brighter future.
We decide...
Oztrialrider
Ok given time we will see where this will go.
I raised this issue to see where the trials community lies, and make them take a stand on what they think is fair. If there is not healthy debate, then these issues will fester. At the moment there is no decision to change, so it will stay as it is as we know it.
Glad I didnt mention the cricket.......
I raised this issue to see where the trials community lies, and make them take a stand on what they think is fair. If there is not healthy debate, then these issues will fester. At the moment there is no decision to change, so it will stay as it is as we know it.
Glad I didnt mention the cricket.......
I would rather push my twinshock than ride a modern!
Its only cheating if you get caught!!! 
Scorps wrote:Howdy Y'all,
At the end of the day, the footing while still on the peg issues are very minor compared to many instances of far worse cheating which was witnessed:
1. Placement of kickers in front of steps which on the first lap had no kickers - and I mean a phone book sized rock into an area that was only dirt.
2. Using the boot to remove a 2m x 200mm section of grass from a particularily slippery landing.
3. Typical heavy boot routine to not lift the foot while walking to clear the lines.
4. (Attempted) baulking - not exiting the section when told and standing in the section as close to the line as possible.
All I'll say is "usual suspects" but I did see other people partaking. In this case it would have had an effect on the podium , so in the greater scheme of things touching your toes on a rock with your feet FIRMLY on the footpeg, makes little consequence.
But I agree that if you touch down with your toes, BUT your feet are not on the footpeg, it should be a 1. And remember its not up to us to make the rules - the observer should INTERPRET the rulebook to the best of their ability.
Cheers,
Your friendly neighbourhood ScorpaMan,
Scorps