Trials Australia Forums

Now let me get this right!
If it looks like a Twinshock, and smells like a Twinshock, and sounds like a Twinshock, it has to be scored like a Twinshock?
Questions Arising:
So when is a Twinshock not a Twinshock? Some of the most prized Twinshock bikes of the era are modified bikes, such as the Beamish Suzuki, Yamaha Majesty, Sammy Miller Specials and numerous Honda specials to name a few.
Should the rules for twinshock go purely production based? Which would mean that the above mentioned “modified bikes” can’t be included in the Production Twinshock class.
Do we score Production Twinshock on non-stop rules and Modified Twinshock on modern rules?
So if I wish compete in Production Twinshock, do I need to remove my Sammy Miller brake lever from my Fantic and do I put the metal back in were I have drilled holes for lightness?
Should TY80’s be in their own “Mini Twinshock” class etc.etc.

What’s next, ensuring that all observers are dressed in the fashions of the era!
Twinshocks use only leaded petrol of the era.
Twinshock riders can only wear rubber boots and don’t have to wear helmets as per the era!
Twinshock competitors can only be Clubman standard riders of the era!

OK, Lets have a reality check at this point.

The Post-Classic class encompasses 20+ years of evolution, there is always going to be disparity between the bikes.
There is always going to be disparity between riders abilities what ever they ride.
There will always be a higher grade rider at some time wanting to “have a go” at Twinshock.

I have witnessed a number of high caliber riders such Kale Reed, Richard Kent and Brendon Hornsby to name a few, on twinshocks and it was awesome to watch them show us just what can be done on/with a twinshock, if you have the skills. (check the names on the WDTC Twinshock Masters Trophy).
Personally I found watching these guys riding a Twinshock more entertaining than seeing them on modern bikes.

Now from an event organizers point of view;

In case you haven’t noticed Trials in Australia isn’t going ahead in leaps and bounds (pardon the pun).
We are not in the UK were there is a Twinshock shop on every second corner and a pre-65 shop on the other.
We simply can’t support the whims of every class or specific class events as in the UK or local VMX events.
Example; MTCQ’s Easter trial, 6 Twinshock out of 75 entrants!
VMX have the support for 18-20 different classes, multiplied by 6 age groups, Imagine buying the trophy’s for that lot, it would out weigh the entry fees for one Trial!

However, the most difficult part of any event is gathering willing (or not so willing) observers so that you guys can ride.
We will always have a huge disparity in observers from the experienced to first timers, young to old and differing levels of care factor, sometimes based on the conditions they are requested to endure, rain, mud, sun and dust.
For example, on the Easter week end we had a couple of lads brought along by their ex-riding Uncle to help observe, neither have ever ridden a bike them selves, we can not expect them to be able to know the difference between a twinshock and a modern bike.
To make it even more confusing, there is always a number of twinshocks entered in clubman, we have pre 65’s entered in twinshock, a twinshock in mini-bike and a twinshock entered in C-grade! And may I add, he’s on a un-modified TY175! (He can’t afford to stop!)(Go Daniel)

So the last thing we need is to is to be telling Observers there is TWO sets of rules, Or there won’t be any observers. Who was it who suggested TWO sets of observers? Good luck with that one!

Hey Roger, you didn’t ask me my opinion on the weekend, a fellow twinshock rider, (after all you did sell me the Fantic) But I guess I was a bit hard to catch up with, as I was moving around to score at different sections covering for a lack of observers and delivering lunches to those that we had.

Personally, I believe the current “Aust Trials Rules” to be a fair compromise between new and old.
I recall the change back to non-stop in about 2000 from the “anything goes” rules. (now known as Super trials)
It was brought in to hurry up the upper level riders and prevent them from rolling or hopping backwards and having 37 attempts at every rock in the sections and holding up the works.
As most of these riders could perform nose wheelies, side hops and air turns this brought about a new scoring problem for the poor old observers, “The Dynamic Stop”!
“That wasn’t a stop, it was a dynamic stop, my suspension was still moving!”
Let’s not go back to that! Not that I can picture to many twinshocks doing air turns, (go for it Tony) but you get the picture, especially as the emphasis of concern seems to be persons riding twinshocks in a non-twinshock like manner, eg; hopping the front and back around on their highly modified twinshock!
The current rules allow you to balance while stopped, (and good luck to you if you can) but they prevent you from going backwards to gain an advantage. So like I said, a fair compromise.

My whole point being, we can’t afford to make the running events any more difficult than it is, we need to make it as easy as we can, we simply do not have the ground swell of support, be it either riders or club members/workers to manage and run the events as it is, without making it more complicated.
All clubs have plenty of external influences to contend without adding to it from within.

So, Nice idea guys, but there is life after 1985!

At the end of the day, it is a balance and skill sport, the most skilled rider will win on the day, regardless of which rules, which bike or which sections!

Now, about this 23yr old air cooled mono-shock sitting in my shed, and no class to ride it in except against modern bikes???

And an enormous THANKYOU to our Observers at Easter!

Cheers
Don Rolands
MTCQ Comp Sec.

Good comments Don and you are correct that I didn't ask your opinion, you were so busy you didn't stand still long enough. After reading your comments does that mean you are for it or against it ???????? !!!!!!!!!.
I liked your last but one sentence about having a 23 year old air cooled mono sitting in the shed and no one to ride against except moderns. I raised this subject some months ago that air cooled mono's will be the next class introduced after Classic and Twinshock so I have already prepared myself for the invasion by riding my Fantic 305 on which I never complain about having to ride against moderns,, at least there will be two of us competing in the class.
Sorry Don but you haven't convinced me that it would be better to allow hopping, air turns or balancing, so far you are in the minority.
Thanks to you and the rest of the MTCQ team for a really enjoyable event over the weekend, rocks, mud, slippery banks and hill climbs and a heap of rain is what keeps me coming back for more.
Regards
Rog(AKA Classic, Twinshock & Air Cooled Mono)

Short answer:
I'm against having two types of rules at a normal event.
It would be to difficult to administer with too little manpower.
And we don't need the extra complication's it would bring.


Cheers
Don Rolands

I can appreciate the problems that multiple rules could potentially cause and sympathise with you. This thread is not dealing with the logistics or possible solutions to every issue just to determine the feeling of twin shock competitors on this issue. That does not mean your points are not valid even if delivered in a somewhat aggressive manner.

Other forms of Classic Motorsport also continually deal with the onward march of time which brings newer (less old?) machines progressively within the 'classic' definition. There are several ways this can be handed. How should Trials? A good question.

The modified, limited edition and specials you mention are all period modification and where ridden under the rules of the day not modern rules. I didn't say modification are out just that they should be period or on the grounds of safety or unavailability of parts/material.

The largest competative classic car meeting in the world is run entirely 'in period' that is not possible or desired for Trials in Australia. It is my option that Classic motorsport should take place under rules as near as possible to the rules in place during their period.

Lastly I would like to genuinely thank you for being one of hundreds and hundreds of volunteers that make our sport possible. I certainly don't want to discourage observers or organisers. I just wanted to put forward an opinion

Wow ! when did all this start , this is the first i have heard all this !!!! Great reply Don , i'm like you nobody asked me for my thoughts over the easter weekend , and i have a shed full of them !!!!!
Don't know where i stand on this yet , i have enough trouble riding in general to be worried about if i can stop or not ! I just love being on the bikes !

Fantastic weekend MTCQ , thanks to Don and the team


Regards
Dan

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there an underground, or should I be so bold to say, unaffiliated Classic Trials competition/club that I have heard exists in S E Qld that would solve all this debate, at least for the cane toads amongst you. If the traditionalists are that passionate about wearing gumboots, cheese cutter caps and smoking pipes, oh and that's right, not stopping, why not support those events more and add some cement to your tea or coffee and harden up when competing in the standard all era open events????
Just my non informed monoshock tuppence worth!

Well It's time I put my two cents worth in.

At the twinshock trials I have ridden over the past 18 months, events have had entries between 30 - 40 riders, of those riders there would be 3 maybe 4 who can stop without dabbing. If the rules are 'stop' or 'no-stop' virtually nothing will change to how sections are ridden. 95% of riders don't want to stop even though the current rules allow them to, it will only cost points.

Changing the rules to 'no-stop' will only disinterest the top level modern ridders who accasionally have a go at twinshock, who everyone seems to love watching. Most the rest of the riders wont change anything about the way they ride, 'stop' or 'no-stop'.

Also lets considder that some junior ridders will use twinshock as a training ground for the modern competition - example Kyle Middleton.

Steve Harvie

Isn't it interesting how some people throw in their tuppence worth and make a few cutting comments and then withdraw to the saftey of anonimity.
The subject of non stop rules for twinshock wasn't raised as a formal survey at the weekend, it was simply a brief discussion here and there but people seem to think it interesting enough to raise a new forum on it and good on you David for doing it, at least your comments are non cryptic and well informed.
It has been suggested that most riders who ride non stop will never change and I think that is spot on, at the same time they are mainly older guys.
If anyone wants to change the rules or make a suggestion to improve any part of our sport then I go back to my previous contribution recommending that they write / email their local state MotoTrials Sub Committee.
Cheers
Twinshock

Diddly401 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there an underground, or should I be so bold to say, unaffiliated Classic Trials competition/club that I have heard exists in S E Qld that would solve all this debate, at least for the cane toads amongst you. If the traditionalists are that passionate about wearing gumboots, cheese cutter caps and smoking pipes, oh and that's right, not stopping, why not support those events more and add some cement to your tea or coffee and harden up when competing in the standard all era open events????
Just my non informed monoshock tuppence worth!

I'm going to have a go at interpreting this post later on tonight

Diddly401 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there an underground, or should I be so bold to say, unaffiliated Classic Trials competition/club that I have heard exists in S E Qld that would solve all this debate, at least for the cane toads amongst you. If the traditionalists are that passionate about wearing gumboots, cheese cutter caps and smoking pipes, oh and that's right, not stopping, why not support those events more and add some cement to your tea or coffee and harden up when competing in the standard all era open events????
Just my non informed monoshock tuppence worth!

What the!! Errrrrr OK what exactly is your point? Do you dislike Classic and twinshock bikes or did you have a bad day? Maybe you could have read the previous replies first

Steve you have made many good points and especially the point that juniors can start trials with parents attending Classics then move on to moderns themselves.

Maybe the solution, if a solution is needed, lies with marking sections so that Classic/twinshock entries can use the 'maintain forward motion' rule if desired while still being able to realistically complete the section. Currently some section are not possible to clean without modern techniques. This may require (most probably would) an additional set of markers so that all classes are catered for equally.

Certainly DMCC twinshock trials events cateres for all standards without specifically ruling on the NSR issue.