pre-65 Spanish?

[A.Phillipson]

firstly I would like to say hello.

I was told that there was a thread that I needed to look at on here, so here I am.

Hi All, After the fallout and discussions re. last years controversial win in Classics on a so called 1964 model Sherpa 'T' , I have been asked as to what changes( if any ) Classic riders . I have been asked by the Vic trials sub committee to comment on any such changes..

I would like to know why the VIC trials club get to change the rules? There is an entire country of trials riders, so the entire country should be questioned about the rule changes. It seems a biased opinion as the Victorian classic trials riders are against my bike and want the rules change.

If the no Spanish rule is implemented, the rules should state that all bikes must be original, this means how they left the factory. This would stuff alot of guys out there that highly modified bikes, as David said you can hide any parts that are new technology, in old parts styling. So keep the class as it was designed to be run and ban all modified bikes and see how that goes.

My understanding to classic trials its to ride an older bike in trials to have fun. I will honestly say that my experience at the national was fun for the fact that I was riding my old bike with my father, however this experience was not fun at all for the fact that every one that rode classic didn’t even acknowledge me there, other that to complain about my bike. I thought trials was a gentleman’s sport. The nationals weekend proved that its nothing more than a sport for people to act like teenagers and winge about what bikes people ride, and the hide behind there computer were they can say what they what with no come backs. Maybe we shouldn’t worry about it and get out there and ride our bikes?

I read the MoMs and it doesn’t say anything at all about the country of manufacture. Apparently it said "no Spanish bike back in the 90's", this rule was dropped though. My bike complied with all the rules listed. I will put up the list of all modifications and there reason. If your a fellow classic rider the challenge is for you also to post ALL modifications to your bikes, and I mean All. I think this will be a good thing to see if the owners of highly modified bikes are actually man enough to post their spec were everyone who competes can see.

All parts on my bike are 100% original other than;
Handle bars-the original ones are weak and would bend riding trials, cannot adjust lever position
Throttle-amal T80/200-the original amal cable point out and can get caught on trees, also the lack of adjustment.
Levers-later model amal levers(alloy)I like the feel of the lever better that the steel ones that came on it, cannot adjust lever position
Footpegs-i think the original ones would be a safety issue when riding in water/rain-as we did, so I put some grippy ones on.
Carbie-amal mark 1, the rules allow us to use them.
Rear shocks-Betor shock-rules say as long as it looks period.
I also have a set of barnnet clutch plates, as I couldn’t get the steel ones at the time, and I had a spare set sitting around, also I use a unifilter air filter, and new tyres. I know such a cheat.

My bike has the original wiring, stator and fly wheel with the condenser mounted under the tank, honestly who of the critics of my bike can say that? the rest of my bike is how it came, My bike was the most original at the event, yet you guys question my eligibility. I didn’t even play with my forks like some, I think I saw a bike with TY forks. This bike was purposely built up to original so that if there were any complaints I could shut them down with the facts. If you don’t believe any of what im saying feel free to contact me and make an arrangement to come look over my bike, have a ride(if concerned we can pull it apart to prove that im telling the truth. Would any other riders out there offer this? only the riders who arnt afraid to show people what they have got.

About the protest, Macca had already said before accepting my application that he has done the research and was more than happy that the bike was designed in November 1964,and it competed in December 1964. Does this not make it eligible? The rules say it must look period and meet certain requirements to be aloud to compete.
The model 10 was made from late 1964-1967 and the only changes were forks were changed to a bigger diameter and the tanks change depending on what country they went to. If the rules were changed to Pre 64 I can see that its not eligable,but the rules don’t state that.
there’s is alot of bike that are considered eligible even though they were made after 31st December 1964 and that’s because the design didn’t change. Neither did the bultaco. I know there is a few bikes that are riden in the events that are many years past the cut off date, When I mentioned it to macca in out discussions he said because there competed previously there accepted. To truly justify your bikes eligibility I think you need to prove its manufacturing date with a covering letter from a classic trials historian, basically no letter no ride. Macca wanted to prove my bike with a letter, I asked why am I the only one, so he said no to worry about it.
For the bike that were made before 64 as "twin shock" stated his 1962 TY,he should be aloud to ride that because the rule allow him to.

Model 10 Sherpa’s belong in the lounge room anyway

why is this so? I think it needs to be riden and show off to the world. Hats what I did in Sydney. Can I ask how many of the people that competed actually had spectators stop you to ask you about your bike? On multiple occasions? I had many people stop to chat to me because of my bike. Is this not another reason why we ride the old bikes, so many people that don’t even ride trials know what a bultaco is, yet ask the what a gas gas or a beta are and they have no idea.

Hi all , I have only been riding Pre 65 for a year now so I don't have the history in the class of people like Twin shock , but I was fortunate enough to be able to go to the nationals last year . I knew there was a Bultaco entered but didn’t think much of it , as always , with me I just wanted to ride my bike . It was only a few weeks later that I realised that it was such a big deal . I managed to run 2nd to the bultaco that weekend . A few people have said somebody should have protested , I have heard that some people wanted to but figured that the entry was accepted so that was it . The thing that I wonder is , if somebody had protested I wonder what would have happened , I was only a couple of cars away from the Bultaco in the pits and on both days as I was having a rest after my first lap , if I am not mistaken , the bike was being loaded up and left the property , so how can you protest a bike that wasn’t there after the trial ? Isn’t there a protest period after the event ? I didn't even get a chance to congratulate him on his win .
So where do I stand ? Obviously I wish there won’t a Spanish bike there !!!! but there was and he won . As far as this topic , Twin shock made a lot of good points as a rider who has ridden these bikes when they were the bikes to ride in the place where it all started , so he is speaking from a lot of experience and passion . Our biggest trouble is the fact that we are in small numbers .

If you were so close how come you never came over and said hello? there was a guy parked at the back passenger side of me and he rode classic, all I heard from his camp was winging about the bike being there, also that same guy gave me death stares as he passed me. I really don’t want to communicate with people that are so shallow minded as that. During the event I pulled up near fellow classic riders and said G'Day and got ignored, with this type of attitude the small few riders we have will continue to decrease. My recollection is that there was 12 riders. Of these riders it was only the Denman riders that spoke to me. That’s very piss poor for a sport to be outcast because of your machinery when there’s only 12 competing in such a major event.

The above mentioned reasons are why I left early. I spoke to Macca and he said that if any protests were lodge he would ignore them as your asking him to over look his decision from before the event. Because of the hostility towards me and my bike I left, and the title of Australian champion doesn’t mean anything to me now because im so hated by my fellow riders.

I think if you actually spoke to me you would find im a nice person.

anyways im off peace out.

A big thanks goes out to all the people who stand up for me through this decisions’ like how there trying to change the rules so one person cannot compete, its so childish.

[David Lahey]

I just remembered something tonight about the thing I was banging on about a couple of weeks ago about being able to measure only some aspects of trials bike performance.

I reread all the posts and found what jogged my memory. It was something Roger said about "Spanish lightweights" being excluded and it reminded me of something that my brother-in-law George McKenzie told me about his (Aussie Title winning) Triumph Tiger Cub pre-65 bike when he was putting it together a few years ago. George's bike has a standard frame, standard steel fuel tank and BSA Bantam hubs so it is not a particularly light Cub as far as Cubs go, but he told me that he was surprised when he weighed it and found it was lighter than his wife Amanda's TY175. My TY175 weighs 83 kg so George's Cub is probably somewhere under 83kg.
My own lovely 1968 "Spanish Lightweight" Bultaco weighs 95kg so I suspect that the earlier model "Spanish Lightweight" that Alan Phillipson rode at the Aussie Titles would probably weigh pretty much the same as mine, or more.
Yes the Spanish bikes are lighter than heavyweights like Norton, Ariel and AJS trials bikes, but they are at least 10kg heavier than many of the James, Tiger Cubs and Bantams that dominate the current pre-65 trials scene.

Now comes a belief/opinion of mine based on riding some of the bikes currently competing in pre-65 trials.
Over the years, Tiger Cubs have become a far more competitive machine to ride in pre-65 class than the Model 10 Bultaco. This is because the weak points of the Cub have been overcome by technological advances and peoples skill at setting bikes up for competition, while the strong points of the Cub (motor performance and light weight) remain. Hands up who still rides a Cub with the standard carby, forks and shocks they came with? I did see one of Gristy's bikes still like that back in 2005. Any others? Sure the Model 10 came with nice forks and shocks that were better at the time than the pommy stuff was standard. The IRZ carby was probably better too (but not much). Trouble is that Tiger Cubs nowadays all have much better forks, shockies and carbies than in 1964 so any advantages that the Bultaco had in 1964 have evaporated in the intervening 46 years.

My point is that if there is going to be a move against non-British bikes in pre-65 trials, please whoever is making the moves, be honest with yourselves and avoid making claims about the British bikes needing to be ridden separately due to some imagined performance deficit compared with bikes from somewhere else.

[narellep]

This whole thing worries me a little.I think it seems to be getting a little personal. I was not at the event in question and I don't ride, I am just a mother, wife and friend of people who ride but I do give up my time to observe, attend meetings, seminars gah!,officiate and run our club trials etc etc and then I hear this stuff goes on and it makes me wonder why I bother.If this kind of stuff keep going it just might rule out every bike that is competing or turn people off and there will be no one left to ride. I thought the idea was to encourage people to get the old bikes out of the shed for people to see and increase numbers of riders, I am not sure that this is the right way to do that. This is why I will stick to our little club and try to dodge all the bull@#!!
I sure hope none of this filters down and destroys what has been and should be a great day out with good people having a good time with family, mates and oh their bikes . I know some of you are very passionate about your sport and everyone has a point of view but just be careful before making any decisions that could ultimately be detrimental to that sport. Don't let this get out of control - is it worth it?

Anyway just my thoughts not that anyone is actually interested in them but there it is,done for better or worse.

Rubber side down

[Starky]

Hi all,

I have a little story. Bare with me here.

Years ago when I was part of the local pistol club I owned a Ruger .22 semiauto target pistol (cheapest gun in the land) I was never competitive with most of the members. Their scores where always better then mine. They had high tech hand grips, lightened triggers and the pistols themselves were reputable and international winners (read they cost heaps). My $350 gun just couldn't cut it. For fun one day when no one was around I benchrested the gun on a sand bag. Over fifteen rounds that gun did not drop a shot past the nine ring at fifty metres. I would have beaten every club member. In other words there was nothing wrong with my pistol, but there was a lot wrong with my shooting skills. That pistol could outshoot my skill level on any day.

Now I ride trials and all my four twinshock TYs can out perform me on any day. There is a message here for me at least.
You could put me on a modern trial bike in a pre65 event and I would still get flogged by older and younger riders. I do have a Central Queensland medal so I am not too bad or did someone not turn up on that day?
I am aspiring to peak in my seventies as a good C grade rider - God I have to get my act together as that is only 14 years away.

My point, you ask?
To the average rider how much difference does a few mods make? Most of them are more of a psychological advantage rather then a true advantage (Look at fishing lures). Most riders who are there for the fun have skills levels where a carby or an electronic ignition make little difference other then how the bike ticks over.

I don't think the above discussion will ever be a personal problem for me. But for those that it is an issue for - when we seek to "exclude" we are certainly going about it the wrong way. The question should always be how do we "include", as we need everyone.

[keithj]

Hi All, After the fallout and discussions re. last years controversial win in Classics on a so called 1964 model Sherpa 'T' , I have been asked as to what changes( if any ) Classic riders . I have been asked by the Vic trials sub committee to comment on any such changes..

I would like to know why the VIC trials club get to change the rules? There is an entire country of trials riders, so the entire country should be questioned about the rule changes. It seems a biased opinion as the Victorian classic trials riders are against my bike and want the rules change.

Hi Alan,

Just to clarify - no one state gets to change the rules. The rules are changed by MA, on recommendation (I believe) from the Trials Commissioners. The Trials Commissioners take submissions from the states, and this is what Geoff is referring to - the Victorian sub-committee are considering submitting a proposal for a rule change to the Commission, and Geoff is seeking feedback.

Typically to get a rule actually changed requires national support, ie. similar submissions from all states' sub committees to the Commission.

Hope that clarifies it.

[BOGWHEEL]

Just being silly - good on you, ride it don't hide it (if they still let you)- please look after it though.
I also was going to say in my previous post - the Model 10 is a bit chunkier than some of the cubs and villiers engined things i've seen around. Probably go alright with a set of knobbies.

There is an extract from a Sherpa history book in one of the Bultaco Club Mags that states dates for the Model 10 - Hmmm, who knows?

[Twinshock]

A couple of further comments;
Ladies first, well said NarelleP, as you said everyone has a right to an opinion and its good that you took the trouble to air your thoughts and you are right in saying that we shouldn't let it get personal.
Secondly, thanks for your comments Alan, I wasn't at the event last year and its a shame that you felt you got the cold shoulder from some of the other guys.
The problem is most older guys are still very competitive and when faced with some new competition we tend to be a bit wary of it until we know what we are dealing with. I know when I get my 1964 Cub out with its steel rims and chrome bar levers I am going to face bikes with alloy rims and fancy alloy levers but to be honest I don't give a rats a**** what levers, footrests, rear shocks, cables, handlebars a bike has got, to me all that counts is what the engine and frame number is to be able to prove from manufacturers records that it was built before Jan 1st 1965.

My point in all this healthy discussion is what I mentioned before that I believe "Pre 65 Class" relates to an era of British bikes that finished around that time when the Spanish and Jap bikes got going. I'm not trying to stop them riding and enjoying the bike as several have mentioned but either enter it in Post Classic, Twinshock or ride non competitive in Classic, don't annoy more authentic Classic bike owners.

Anyway I will be out at the Aussie titles in Qld this year with my 1964 T20SM Eng. no. 96616, frame no, same and registered with the Mike Estall Tiger Cub register in the UK and I will probably have alloy rims on it by then along with alloy levers, square head and barrel and unmodified heavy weight forks and frame so get those protests ready !!!!
Cheers
Twinshock,,,,, or should I change my pen name to "Classic"

[Steve Holzhauser]

Hello Allan,

It is really good to see you have the courage to respond to this posting. It is a sad reflection on the sport to see the hurt you must feel to be put in a position to post such a response.

Not being a classic rider but a very passionate Trials competitor, I find your meticulous reply to each issue an indication of your rightful inclusion as a competitor.Your discussions with Bob McGlinchy who is one of Australian Trials most experienced and accredited official, regarding the bikes entry, is testament of your obvious concerns of fair play within the guidelines of eligibility.
Your treatment by some fellow riders, unfortunately, does come with the territory of being at the pointy end of results, believe me.

Motorcycling Australia sets the rules in place for all events under there control, their acceptance of your entry together with your skilful ride over the 2 day event has rightly seen you win fairly and squarely the National Championship crown for the Classic Class.

It is an achievement you should be very proud of.

Hope to see you in Queensland in August.

Regards
Steve Holzhauser..

[GHRC]

Hi Allan.
I feel I should clear up a few points.

As I wrote, I was not aware of any hostillity towards your bike before or during the trial. I certainly did not hear anything about the elegibility of your bike in the competition on either of the two days.

As to why I did not say hello to you, I really did not get a chance to talk to any other competitor at length, as I was also riding with my 10 year old son, (in his first Aussie Titles) he was having difficulties, (as anyone who saw his crash on section 3 Day 1 would know!) obviously my concentration was not only about my own riding. Not saying hi to you was certainly NOT because of the bike you rode!
I was sincere in my wanting to congratulate you on your well deserved win, Steve is right in saying you should be proud of your win, as I am of my second place. ( a big personal acheivement for me!)
Mate, I am sure no-one dislikes you I certainly don't, I have no doubt you are a nice person - so am I!!!!!
My posting was absolutely not intended to offend you personally.

Regards:

[gristy]

G/Day One & All,I am one who stood up for Spanish Shit & personally I dont care country of origin long as it is PRE65.If you look at old mags & videos you will see BMWs,MZ,PUCH etc.I have mentiond a whole heap before about elegibilty & such before on the forum after the titles but didnt get much feed back.We are trying to get a Twin Shock & Classic Open running this year at Denman ,Xpert,A,B,C,Clubman & Juniors Twinshock & B,C & Clubman Classics June long weekend 2 day.So how about Vic boys come up & Qld boys come down to discuss CLASSICS & the word is DISCUSS come with open mind & fun.As I have said before I will never win a AUSSIE TITTLES because as it says on my shirt "HERE FOR FUN"which means plenty of amber fluid & meeting people.People have to accept that young bastards can ride better than old bastards but they will be old oneday.Regards GRISTY(TEAM POMMY SHIT)