All grades in Aussie and State titles events

[Stu]

Its very unforunate that with Trials that we dont ride the same track like MX, but in that alone is what sets us different to other disciplines. I know that QLD and NSW sections are different, they were explained to me by Greg Harding, and that there is no way to standardise the sections OZ wide. We all ride on different rocks, ride in varying depths of creeks and the section setters can be varied in the way they do their work.

[Twinshock]

Me again
One of the options in the poll on the home page was a bit confusing so Keith has modified it and the results are now showing a different story because some votes have been lost.
Vote again if you feel that your vote has disappeared.

Personally I would like to see B, C and Clubman catered for in all titles events. The way to combat the "ring ins" from a higher grade is to require a rider to have competed in that grade for the season prior the the event. If a rider is graded B, C or Clubman in a different state then so be it, at least it will determine the different standards in each State,,, if any.
None of this is rocket science or too difficult to organise, we just need the organisers to take note of what is being said.
Cheers
Twinshock

[Stu]

BINGO! thats the way Twinshock!

[Smiddy]

Since this issue has come up again, I'll have to state the tired old opinion again.
As one that will directly benefit from a B-class open solo, I implore you to not run any grade that does not have regulatory restrictions. It is one trial per year and requires well-heeled observers and marshalls to ensure things run smoothly.
People should be able to put aside one or two days every five years to assist in running the national event; after all, the event needs you. How exactly will allowing the Clubman-through-A-Graders ride, that do not qualify in a support class, gain helping hands? They're the ones that are the primary observers on both days, ensuring a knowing eye will not cause scoring confusion and will allow a fair event.
If you don't qualify for the National titles, you still have between 8-18 other events in your locale to compete in, depending on your state of residence. I've ridden one Titles and observed at 3 others; it really shouldn't be an issue to do so.
I'm sorry guys, but what is being voted is that the system should stay as it is, anyway. By all means have a precursory trial for the non-championship support classes on the Friday or Monday to enable those not riding to compete at the event (By the way, I still think one "Experts" and a couple of "Beginners" trials would be a fantastic idea at state level).
While it would be good to see this issue stay on the backburner for a while this time, better luck next year?
Best regards,
Brendan

[Don Duck]

Hey Guys,
Just a couple of points I feel have been overlooked.
Firstly:
We need to remember that Organizers can only run a “Championship event” as dictated by the rule book! If they don’t they will cop it from all angles!

So if you don’t agree with the way it is done, you need to get the rules changed. To do this you need to make up a submission for a rule change.
As Col Scott has advised as a news article on this web site dated 19-1-10, submissions are still open!

Secondly:
There also seems to be some confusion between “Class” and “Grade”
A “Class” is designed around specific parameters.
A particular “Grade” is a level of competency within those “Class’s”
A Championship event is aimed at finding the “CHAMPION” for each “CLASS”.
Examples of CLASS’s:
OPEN SOLO: Open to any rider on two wheels.
MASTERS: Aged based, over 35y
VETERANS: Aged based, over 40y
YOUTH: Aged based, up to 21y
JUNIOR: Aged based, under16y (yes, and the other one!)
POST CLASSIC: Age of bike, pre ’85, any rider
CLASSIC: Age of bike, pre ’65, any rider.
SIDECAR: Umm, 3 Wheels, any riders. (Well we all know it takes a certain type of rider!)
Some of the above “Classes” (Open solo) are comprised of differing “grades”, X, A, B, C, Clubman,(even Introductory or novice)

Hypothetically, based on the reasoning of previous posts, should “Novice Grade” be part of the championship? I think not.
Or given enough rider numbers, (again hypothetically), should a “D grade” rider competing in the “Twinshock Class” be part of the championship? I think not.
As I said, a Championship event is designed to find the Champions and essentially the events throughout the year are the heats that lead up to the final event, “The Australian Titles ”

Also don’t forget, here in Queensland we have been running the QMTS for the past 3 years to help cater for the “Other Interests” at a state level.
Personally I’m happy the way it is. Let’s face it, although Bob next door may cut a good time around the block on his morning jog in his boxer shorts, you wouldn’t expect to see him at the Olympics’!

I agree, there is some merit in running an “additional” event for the support grades (sorry, “Balance Challenged” sorry again, “lesser graded riders” oop’s sorry again, “Non-Xpert” rider) (Hell, I’m one of them and I’m not offended by “support grade”, although I did buy a Twinshock!)
With most clubs looking at their P&L’s from last year, whether this would actually be a financial gain towards the running of a Champ Event may be questionable. And whether or not you gain or lose workers is also open to question, although that said, if those same persons were riding in the Champ Event, I’m pretty sure that the rule book would frown upon them scoring!

Anyway, hasn’t this already been taken care of by the proposed “Gate Trial” at Esk in the middle of this year’s Trials Week! It’s open to all grades I believe!

I also agree totally with Smiddy in that it’s not too much to ask to forgo riding at one event over four or five years to support (there’s that word again) your states effort to run a National Titles event and to help make a success of it.

Yours Sincerely
“Skillfully Challenged”

[paulm]

I’ve followed this thread with some interest since I’m firmly in the Clubman who ‘has a go at the Nationals each year’ category and I’m puzzled????

IF we want this sport of ours to develop and grow, surly we should encourage an ‘inclusive’ not ‘exclusive’ attitude.

Point in case – Last year’s F1 in Melbourne had more than a dozen’ Supporting Classes’ competing over the course of the week. None of the competitors in these classes had any illusion that they were competing in the F1 but it sure spiked heaps of interest/involvement and simply makes commercial sports development sense.

Now if we believe that commercial interest has no place in Moto Trials we need to get real, real quick. Continuing with an exclusive and elitist attitude towards the principle event of the year, will surly leave us in danger of repeating the mistakes of our brethren overseas. The World trials scene today has only a handful of competitors capable of tackling the ‘World Championship’ events; the manufacturers now recognise this and are leading the charge to make the sport more inclusive and assessable.

Or else, they fear, they’ll go broke...

Locally, without our local importers we don’t have a sport. Most of the guys and girls who put money and time on the line to bring in bikes do it out of passion not profit. Surly one of the best way to support them, and indirectly ourselves, is to make our most prestigious event of the year as INCLUSIVE as possible. That way there’s every chance more people will be attracted to have a go. Let’s face it, with the best will in the world most spectators watching our Xpert riders for the first time will say ‘cool... but I could never do that’. Not so when watching a clubbie...

And, in these difficult economic times surely QLD needs as many entries as possible in August yet we still see comments like those made earlier in this post ‘the Titles in QLD will be a tough call for NSW Vets/C graders’ (David - I'm sorry for the paraphrasing). It does little to encourage involvement and I know of at least a dozen riders who are now thinking – not for me this year...

I firmly believe our sport would benefit from a change in attitude. I cannot understand why there should be ANY resistance to Support Classes running alongside the AUSTRALIAN TITLES classes on the same day, at the same venue. This whole sentiment is not about demeaning the value of the Titles, far from it – it’s inspirational in almost every sense of the word. The support classes are NOT national championships they are just that, support.

I hear the ‘observer’ argument every year - but I recon I could make an educated guess as to how many observers will be travelling to QLD from SA, VIC, WA and NSW this year just to observe – but how many B, C and Clubman’s ‘significant others’ might observe if their partners were riding is, perhaps, a completely different story.

Finally, if our governing bodies are too short sighted to recognise that the world is moving on and won’t sanction support classes, perhaps it’s time we had different governing bodies –

I don’t believe for one minute that they are that short sighted, perhaps it’s just up to us to show them the how and why.

Good on ya Twinshock for raising this... that’s my rant over... and I'm 'looking forward' to being shot down in a barrage of guano...

Paul McGrath

[Twinshock]

Great to see so many points of view but don't forget Mr Duck (good an ya Don)that supporting F1 there is F2, F3 and Formula Ford and a host of other categories so what's wrong with an Aussie champ B, C or Clubman never mind whether its a class or a grade.
Am I correct in saying there is a 250cc and 125cc world championship supporting the motoGP big boys but in Aus observed trials events we can only have an open champ and a splash of support classes, its short sighted and archaic.
While people keep throwing up these petty obstacles we will never move forward and I'm not saying my arguements are the answer to it all but until we get an organising body who start moving with the times then things will stay as they are.
Again I put the arguement forward and ask where our Open Champion will come from in 10 years time but in 10 years time will there be enough riders around to make a decent event of it due to the severity of sections being faced by the top guys these days.........,,,,,
Here's a thought,,, what's wrong with putting on sections that could be tackled by B and possibly C grade riders all competing for the "open Title",,, OK the top experts will maybe only loose 10 marks over two days but perhaps the top B grader might come in 12th and the best C grader comes in 24th out of an "Open class "of 48 riders. Would that be better than watching 15 open riders struggling to get through monstrous sized rocks or not even bothering to ride the section due to time constraints
The winner of "Open" does not have to loose 180 marks, it takes the same amount of concentration when they are involved in a low scoring event, it would be good to get one of their opinions on this, a winner is a winner no matter how many marks they loose or what grade, sorry, class, they are riding. Didn't Gordon Jackson win the SSDT many years ago loosing only 1 mark.
Someone will come up with the story that we need to put on world class sections to keep our standard up but I don't see too many of our Experts competing on the world stage apart from the TDN.

Anyway thanks for your comments Paul Mc, couldn't agree more ,
Cheers
Twinshock

[Axel]

This discussion comes up annually and lots of feedback is given by those that care, but there are never any changes.

This is one subject that I can't help commenting on, as with any sport for it to develop, the "users" should be listened to. I ask the same question as I did last year and that is: Why are those "Over 35 - Masters" catered for? Why are those "Over 40 - Veteran" catered for?, etc. etc. etc., but if you fall in the 21 - 35 age group you MUST ride Open Solo - The very top of the sport with the "best of the best"? Or as someone usually comments - "Oh, but they can ride twinshock!" Lucky them! This is the age bracket where you have young men and women, able to support themselves and not rely on parents to fund their sport, but are completely left out. They usually go to enduro or motocross instead.

As in the World Championship it has become extremely obvious that the top level is too hard for but a few and there is a real need for a "B" level to keep the numbers (and the bike purchasers) in the sport.

And the argument that the Clubman riders must not be included as they are needed to run the event, I find that rather insulting. "No, you can't compete because you must work." The observer problem is an ongoing one and needs other solutions than to exclude a level for this reason. How about exchange the Veteran grade for Clubman every second year. There are more than enough "experienced" veterans to do the observing!

All sports throughout Australia and the World run support classes to help fund their sport. They don't have to be title grades. It is just good economics.

[Stu]

ok so where do I stand if I choose to ride at the Aussie Titles? Sell the TY and go for a Pre '65 Bulto? Or ride in Post Classics and struggle thru A grade sections again? I have been successful in Trials over the years , but age and health is against me to further my grade. Clubman is my Grade and I'd like to compete in this grade and not a 'pseudo' Clubman section ride.

[Scorps]

Howdy Y'all,

My opinion is leave to it as it is. Here are my reasons:
1/ There are better, more enjoyable trials to ride through out the year.
2/ Adding more classes to a trial , means an entry of maybe 200/300 riders. I have yet to go to a trial of more than 100 riders that does not have major queuing issues.
2a/ One way to alleviate queuing, is to have more groups of sections, which means more observers... (you can see where this is going)
3/ The top level riders must ride a lot of "boring" club trials etc (lets be honest, they are set at a low std), so let them have their day.
4/ It is hard to find good venues that can support quality open solo sections, let alone a triple sized riders carpark.
5/ It is bloody hard to get people to set 30 sections, let alone 60 or more. To me, more people leave the sport because they are tired of setting trials and the behind the scenes work, not because they miss out in riding a titles.

To me, everyone gets so worked up about making the Aussie titles an everyone can ride event, where I think more effort should be made to keeping grass roots trials strong - make every event as special as an Aussie titles. My case in point is the enjoyment the lower grade Twinshock guys get riding Brooweena, instead of getting smashed at the Aussies....

Cheers,
You friendly neighbourhood KawiMan,
Scorps