Page 299 of 324

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:39 pm
by Greg Harding
Hi Everyone,
David Lahey wrote:........So my theory is that it is a model 99 from near the end of model 99 production.

That makes sense to me David, remember we narrowed it down to somewhere in M158 (I think) model run where they changed from round holes under engine to slotted holes. This did not change with a new model so more likely when they ran out of round hole pieces?
IMG_20220809_140209.jpg
IMG_20220809_140209.jpg (1.08 MiB) Viewed 1224 times

IMG_20220809_140224.jpg
IMG_20220809_140224.jpg (316.65 KiB) Viewed 1224 times

This is the matching numbers on parts bike but I don't know how many :bultaco: M99s they made? But definitely a higher number than the more complete bike:
IMG_20220809_140434.jpg
IMG_20220809_140434.jpg (478.87 KiB) Viewed 1224 times

David Lahey wrote:I'm very much looking forward to when Greg has a nice 325 :bultaco: set up for trials competition. The things he does setting up his twinshocks should make it very nice to ride.
It will also be great to know how it goes back to back against his :italjet: Piuma, as in which of them is the better :bultaco: :shock: :shock:

Newsflash on this, it appears we will have a :bultaco: and a :italjet: in the same paddock and if there is no fist to cuffs, there may be an impartial test pilot...............

How many model 99 Alpinas?

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:48 pm
by David Lahey
OK here is a list of just the "350" :bultaco: Alpina models
Model number - production date - how many made
99 - May 1972 - 2464 made
116 - Oct 1973 -3003 made
138 - Sept 1974 - 2188 made
166 - Dec 1975 - 551 made
188 - July 1976 - 1252 made
213 - July 1977 - 2264 made

So that :bultaco: of Greg's with the later front end parts was still about 400 from the end of the production run.

The first :bultaco: Alpina was the model 85 which was a 250. It sure was a hit - with 6638 produced. Maybe if they had started selling the 350 before the 250 hit the market, the 350 might have been the bigger hit?

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:16 pm
by Mark K
Greg Harding wrote:Newsflash on this, it appears we will have a :Bultaco: and a :italjet: in the same paddock and if there is no fist to cuffs, there may be an impartial test pilot...............

:italjet: v :bultaco:

I started off writing this thinking that I was going to compare two bikes, but it ended up as something just a bit different.

I had an opportunity last weekend to have a test ride on two different bikes, and then to comment on what I thought about their differences. I have known both Greg and Graham for some time. Both are good riders, and both have the ability to set up a bike to work well for themselves, and obviously each has theirs set up for how they personally prefer it. If any questions arise from this, I’m sure either Greg or Graham will know all of the appropriate technical details.

I started off on Greg’s Italjet. As soon as I started riding I realized that I hadn’t thought anything through, but that I’d better take careful note of exactly where I go so that I can duplicate it on the other bike. I rode through the “stadium area” going over some small things and between and around others, just basically starting to get a feel for how the bike reacted, and then headed down a bit of a downhill run over some rocks and some slightly muddy bits to the next section where I rode straight into the section knowing the area, but never having seen how this particular section was set on this occasion. Without stopping, walking it, or even looking at it before I entered, I rode through the section on the introductory line and cleaned it, even thinking to myself how good the power felt on the uphill bit, but then as I started to ride back up the track to return to the stadium area it started to run really poorly, and then a couple of seconds later it just stopped.

I turned on the fuel tap and waited a couple of seconds to give the fuel a chance to refill the carby before I kicked it, starting easily with a gentle motion on the first kick and then running flawlessly for the remainder of the ride. I went back through the stadium area, and this time took on some slightly more challenging stuff. A couple of minutes later I then repeated the process on Graham’s Bultaco, except it didn’t run out of fuel.

On first impression both bikes are bigger, more powerful, and heavier and significantly higher geared than what I’m used to, and neither turns quite as tight as my little TY.

That being said, when I first started off on the Italjet I was surprised by how comfortable I felt on it and how generally easy it was to ride. Once I got past the first feeling out bit, and was going downhill to the next section where it was both a bit rocky, and a bit muddy in between, I started to notice that maintaining the same sort of technique that I use going downhill had me going a bit faster than what I normally go, because of the higher gearing, but the front suspension was also way better than what I’m used to and it inspired confidence. Front and rear brakes worked well and predictably with a good feel, and despite my less than perfect posture on the bike, as evidenced by Graham’s photos, I felt surprisingly comfortable and quite at home on the bike. I finished off back in the stadium area and challenged myself at the very end with an unnecessary tight turn which I know would have been towards the limits on most bikes. The Italjet comfortably did it with maybe an inch to spare.

The power was good, strong, predictable and came on smoothly just as you’d want it to. I was quite impressed with how well the bike worked with my style of riding in sections. I leave the clutch out and control everything with throttle and brakes riding a non-stop style as much as possible (Yes, I know I’m 50 years behind the times, but that’s what works for me).

When I started on Graham’s Bultaco I knew that it was time to start making comparisons. The initial ride before, and then through the stadium area, showed me that the Bultaco felt even higher geared than the Italjet. Initially all else felt good and not a lot different from the Italjet, till I got to the downhill run where I felt a whole lot more insecure and unconfident on the Bultaco. I’ll explain that shortly. I cleaned the same line through the same section as I did previously, and my impression was that the Italjet had been better on the downhill and level parts, but the Bultaco was nicer on the uphill bits. It might or might not actually have more power than the Italjet, but it certainly felt like it had torque that went on forever. I also suspect that the rear suspension or possibly even the combination of front and rear, made it feel just a little more stable going uphill on uneven ground.

When I got back to the stadium area, because I’d already ridden it once, and I knew where to go and how it felt, I rode through with just a touch more confidence than I’d had on the Italjet, but then I also would have had that same increase in confidence if I’d ridden through again on the Italjet. What I did notice was that at the very last turn that I mentioned earlier I rode between the tyres and over the mound of dirt with more confidence and didn’t put quite as much concentrated effort into setting myself up with maximum space to make the final turn, and as a result came out of it scraping against the tape instead of with an inch to spare. Its only a tiny difference, but those tiny differences can mean cleaning or failing a section. In this case it was more about my performance than the capabilities of the bikes. The Bultaco was generally just as easy to ride as the Italjet.

The biggest difference by far between the bikes was how I felt going downhill on the Bultaco. The more I’ve thought about this, the more I’ve realized that it is far more about me and my performance than about the actual performance of the bikes. The Bultaco seems to be set up a bit taller at the back and I wondered if that tilted the bike further forward changing the steering geometry slightly. The handlebars on the Bultaco seem a touch narrower than most, and I also wondered if that made any real difference. In hindsight I don’t think any of that mattered. Those that know me well will know that I don’t like heights, and I don’t enjoy riding downhill where I can see a long way down. That probably makes trials riding a stupid choice for me, but such is life.

With both of these bikes being higher geared than what I’m used to, they both roll downhill in first gear with the clutch out a bit faster than what I’m used to and what I’m normally comfortable with. I discovered that when I think about applying the rear brake sometime in the near future, I instinctively transfer some more of my weight on to my left foot so that my right foot is more easily able to re-position to the brake pedal and start to apply pressure whenever necessary. That was perfectly fine and workable on the Italjet, but on the Bultaco, even though I knew it had a left foot rear brake, and had thought about that moments before, I still instinctively transferred some of my weight to my left foot, then realized I had to shift it to the other side before I could move my left foot to the correct position to apply the brake.

That meant I travelled a little bit further, at a speed a touch faster than I was comfortable with, before I got the brake on. When I got the brake on it worked well, and in fact the bike was stable and secure the whole time, with its front suspension being so much better than what I’m used to, it actually performed really well on the downhill, but for me it was more about being spooked for that fraction of a second each time I realized that I needed to shift my weight in what felt an unnatural way before I could get the rear brake on (while in my mind I was hurtling out of control down a huge hill).

There are discussions all over the internet about right foot verses left foot breaking, and obviously it is something that might take more than one quick ride to truly master it. There are also discussions all over the internet about left verses right side kickstarter. Both of these bikes started easily and ran well. Both had good brakes, good clutches, good power, and nice suspension. Although they are bigger and heavier than what I’m used to, neither actually felt bigger or particularly heavy. They were easy to ride, and in fact their capabilities seemed well beyond what my limited talents would allow me to do. If really pushed to pick a winner I’d have to say that even though I liked the power and suspension of the Bully, the Italjet just sneaks in for the win because of the familiarity of the right foot rear brake.

My perception of any differences between them seem to reflect more about how I ride than about the actual abilities of those bikes. As much as I hate to admit it, apart from lightness, and tightness of turning circle, both of those bikes out-performed mine in pretty much every way possible, and both were a pleasure to ride.

Thanks to Greg and Graham for the opportunity to play.

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:52 pm
by Bully fanatic
Thanks for that Mark. Here are a couple of photos to prove that you did ride each of them. So you realise my first gear was about the same as Gregs second or maybe even third gear. I do chop about an inch of each end of my handlebars.
IMG_0798 (1).JPG
IMG_0798 (1).JPG (1.51 MiB) Viewed 1159 times

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:33 pm
by Rod
Graham, chopping the bars down is a bad habit you need to give up. Do you still have the copper 2 cent coins jammed in at the ends of the grips?

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:15 pm
by Bully fanatic
Hi Rod. I always used 10 cent pieces or some tree branches. I was even using old broken drum sticks for a fair while!
I have been using bought plastic plugs for years now. In the aluminium bars anyway. For steel bars I bought some 25mm black nylon bars and machine some up on my Myford ML7. I have always liked shorter handlebars!

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:58 pm
by Greg Harding
Hi Everyone,
Mark K wrote:Thanks to Greg and Graham for the opportunity to play.

Thankyou Mark for a well thought out comparison and description of two very different but similar bikes. This is not the first time that I had ridden Graham’s :bultaco: :bultaco: :bultaco: as I rode it (maybe) ten years ago now and it is just as sweet as I remember it! Interesting that I missed that the handlebars were narrower than normal, they were closer to me than where I would have them on any of my bikes. So I just adapted but was not totally comfortable with the closeness of the riding position, I can remember my :italjet: felt like that so I made some changes. When you think about it, my arms must be longer than Graham’s and being comfortable allows you to focus on the job at hand. This photo shows the old and the reworked top triple clamp which basically moved the handlebars from behind the headstem to in front of the headstem:
IMG_20220823_135502.jpg
IMG_20220823_135502.jpg (1.43 MiB) Viewed 1102 times

These bars have not been cut down in width and are the original :italjet: fitment along with most of the bike, even the Marzzochi shocks! They leak a little in the seals and still have a nice action but nowhere near as refined or controlled as Graham’s NJB shocks!

Graham is right about the gearing as I like a nice slow approach speed for picking my way through sections.There are six gears to choose from so I can always change up to punch up climbs.

Thanks again Graham for joining in as it is always good to get other people's feedback on your pride and joy! While writing this has me thinking about all of the similarities in the way both :bultaco: and :italjet: feel, steer, point and react when they appear quite different !!!

Is it possible that :bultaco: had a :italjet: lurking in the background complete with a factory rider when they were developing the Sherpa T?

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:35 pm
by Rod
Is it possible that :italjet: had a :bultaco: lurking in the background complete with a factory rider when they were developing the T350?

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:41 pm
by Jools
Well what a laugh! The 'Piuma' was an overweight, troublesome pig IMHO!
Italjet? -Shitaljet... :mrgreen:

Re: Basket Cases

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:18 pm
by Rod
The original all green Italjets that Australia got were heavy pigs, the later Piuma's were way lighter and not that bad.