Cub barrels.

[whitehillbilly]

Original Cub.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/triumph-comer ... 33802df3db

whitehillbillies

[whitehillbilly]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-TIGER ... m19d8d80d0
pre 65 ????

whitehillbillies

[Twinshock200]

The purpose of the Cub photo's I put up earlier was simply to show some nicely modified bikes that are competing in the UK, I am not trying to promote the idea of these bikes becoming the norm in Aus.
The ebay ad for a 12,000 pound Cub is for two identical Cubs put together by a couple of well known guys here who have a reputation for this kind of workmanship. There are Cubs over here which regularly sell on ebay for between 2 and 3,500 pounds and there are others that sell for more.
The point is that if they are allowed to enter and ride over here then they are eligible, but to be honest the rules seem to change from club to club and region to region.
The organisation that I ride with (BMCA) stipulate Pre 70 and all major components being of British manufacture and they also have a class for "Specials" which I have seen to be a really good way of getting bikes out of the shed and onto the courses with an expert line and a clubman line through the sections which caters for all level or rider.
Pommie Pre 65 class has all but disappeared with the Scottish Pre 65 two day event being the most stringent on eligibility but frame mods and Jap and Italian carbs being allowed over here apart from Scotland.
Australia is also following the same trend, like it or hate it, rules now allow "any carby", PVL and other electronic ignition kits are becoming a necessity and there are a few square barrels in Aus, which incidentally, were fitted to works trials Cubs in the latter half of 1964 and were obviously in "production" prior to their release on 1965 model bikes. Incidentally, why allow any carby when there was a perfectly adequate older style, Amal Mk 1 Concentric available which, when set up properly, is as good as any Jap or Italian carb,,,,,,,, progress I guess !!!!!!!!!
Progress will continue to happen and yes there will be CNC machined alloy yokes and billet hubs starting to appear in Aus. just as alloy levers, rims and tanks have replaced the old original stuff but we cannot stand in the way of all these weight saving mods because guys will want them as they become available.

There are two ways of getting a good bike and the first is to make it yourself if you have the engineering skills and George has that ability by being able to build his bike so cheaply and to give it a capacity of 250cc, I think that is a bigger advantage than a square barrel to improve cooling George.
The second way to own a highly modified bike is to pay for someone else to do the work for you and some guys prefer to do it this way or buy the parts and fit them.
There are guys that are happy to ride any standard of Classic or Twinshock bike and simply go out and have some fun and there are others that need to win on the best bike available but progress will happen one way or another over a period of time and pedantic fin counting will not prevent it happening.

I think I will apply for the vacant position on the MA Trials Commission to make some of these things happen,,, see you all later in March.

[Geoff Lewis]

Hi All. The main protaganists raise some interesting questions, however in Victoria it doesn't really matter as no one is riding in pre 65 anymore anyway. Don't worry they'll all come out of the woodwork when there is a title up for grabs! Pathetic really. However I firmly believe that given the sections that we ride now, any one riding an unimproved, fairly standard bike with poor carburation,ignition and brakes is taking the risk of serious injury and worse than that is the risk of not enjoying their days riding because their bike is so crap. I feel that for those people who don't have the savvy to improve their bike with engineering skills, need to be able to buy parts that are eligible so they can improve them. I don't agree with substantial frame mods such as cutting out the bottom frame rails etc. as this changes the character of the appearance which to most spectators is the appeal of the class and it is a display class at the end of the day after all. Replica triple clamps and brake drums don't effect the appearance of the bike as much as major frame mods in my opinion. I have photos here at home of some winning bikes in the actual era, here in Victoria, courtesy of Ray Lander, pretty they ain't! Perhaps the answer is to throw out all the rules and just have a non competiton Gentlemans Classic/Twinshock and ride any line in the section you want with no awards? I don't agree with Roger regarding Amal Carbs as I consider them worse than a Jikov and that's saying something!
Regards Geoff Lewis

[TriCub]

Come on where are all the other classic riders. If you don't speak up no one will know what you think.

Geoff.
I think you are spot on about the Amal carbs. Only problem with letting in trick parts will be the fact that allmost all of them are made for the Cubs so just about all other bikes like your CZ's will become so out classed that it will become a one bike class.

Roger you keep on about my 250 engine but I wonder if it's all about HP then would my motor with its 7:1 CR , 16mm carb , pionts ignition and stock cam beat your 200 up a hill climb with it's 9:1CR , 22mm carb , PVL ignition and high lift sport cam ? I'm sure I would have a more bottom end pull than your motor but still way less than a B40 BSA which is still in the Light weight pre65 class. I wonder as well is it ok to overbore and port a Bantam using a TS185 piston which gets it close to 190cc.

Roger becoming a Trials commissioner would be the final nail in the coffin for me. It sounds all to familiar though doesn't it. Get in "bee in your bonnet" about the rules , get a position as a commissioner and then get rule changes to happen despite what the majority of riders want. Doesn't say a lot for the whole MA system. I can just see it now, ban overbored engines, ban anything non british, only Mk1 Amals allowed.
Sorry Roger for taking making a joke at your expense, I'm sure you would be a good commissioner and only do things after polling all the classic riders.

[oldslowcoach]

George – re 250cc Cub, I think Roger is commending you on building your bike, including stroking, for so little expenditure. Personally, I would allow stroking / overboring on any bike

Geoff - re- enjoying riding old bikes. External springed front end of my Cub so bad it will be sporting Ty 250 front end later this year. I will not be at the pointy end and will ride Non Competitive

Amal 622 – A way to make them run better on small 4 strokes is to use a 2 stroke spay jet. I have both but will not be bothering

Visual / appearance – who is this for? Cub with Betor forks and an original steel tank is probably more visually original than one with Triumph forks and a Ty or Bulto tank

The way forward, short term. If Roger could accept a Keihin round carb is visually compatible with the period and George could accept that a square head and barrel cub is pre 65 then the class could move forward

Long term. As competitive class pre 65 bikes have to ride the present clubman line, I personally would accept the following,

Upgrade to front forks – list of acceptable forks ( as Classic Mx )
Upgrade to swinging arm, lengthen by 25mm max or replica @ 25mm max
Billet, replica, modified yokes ok
Modification to or replica rear sub frame allowed
List of acceptable hubs ( as Classic Mx )
Front frames to be standard and not to have lower frame rails removed (if originally present)
Stipulate a maximum ground clearance, no sag, and also stipulate a minimum weight

[Twinshock200]

At last we have some good feedback coming in but unfortunately its only from 4 or 5 contributors and George makes the point that we need more, I agree but some guys don't like to get involved in forums so it will always be a minority viewpoint on a subject like this.
Sorry to rave on about the Mk 1 Concentric but honestly guys I own three Cubs these days and have one fitted to each and believe me they work perfectly but there is a knack to setting them up properly and it can be done easily, whats a Jikov Geoff ????

I go back to the point I have raised before, call the Classic class/grade "Pre 70" and have a "Specials" class within it for the so called modified bikes and then we have a chance of dragging a few more oldies (Bikes & riders) out at the weekend.
I smiled at your thoughts of me becoming an MA trials commission dictator George and bulldozing my ideas through the system but isn't that exactly what happenend with the "any carb" rule just introduced.
Incidentally the latest Bantams over here are out to a full 200cc now and they are also producing a B40 version which I saw at the Telford show and there is a Cub version still to come.
George I accept your challenge to try our bikes up the biggest hill we can find, maybe the challenge could be included at one of the trials when I am over for six weeks but I must point out that you have wrongly listed the spec of my Cub in your last post but I will still keep it a secret, this could be fun.
Cheers
Galps ( Prospective MA Trials Commissioner)

[Francis B]

Hi all
when i built up my classic in 2002, my aims were to use my limited mechanical skills ( hence the 6E villiers "powerplant") to make a lightweight (FB rigid roadframe) bike that would allow me to have a some fun in the dirt. I also decided to use modern allow rims (allows me to fit modern tyres with tubes) and alloy bars and levers (i might add the levers get changed regulary!), with just about everything else straight from 1955. The bike has competed in over 120 trials ( yes Geoff not just titles ) and has been FUN to use - mission accomplished. Due to my average skills (very) I started in clubman and have been a regular entry in the twin shock class here in Vic. with my aim to ride and learn from some of Australias best riders . Maybe before everyone gets too bogged down in eligiblty issues , we all should step back, take a deep breath and remember why we ride what we do.
Seeyou at a trial soon
Cheers Francis

[Andy M]

I ride my Bantam in the Specials class in the BMCA trials in the UK.(Marzocchis and Delorto) It enabled me to get on and ride the bike whilst tracking down the parts to enable me to have a more friendly pre 65 bike albeit having forks machined and a decent Amal if I can find one.
The forks go to be sorted within a week or so and I have an Amal to start with. When they have been sorted the bike should then be eligible for the Scottish pre 65, probably the most stringent rules for any trial in the World.
As long as you don't do anything ridiculous it is a good class. It gets people and their bikes out .

[David Lahey]

OK I'm a potential Classic trials rider so I'll stick my neck out and tell my story.

One of my first bikes was a 1950s plunger rear end Tiger cub, in about 1970, and after frequent expensive engine rebuilds (by my Dad), it cured me of ever wanting to ride one again. Shortly after the Tiger Cub, my Dad rebuilt an early 1960s CZ125 road bike, which by contrast was amazingly reliable and long lasting. My first trials bike (bought a couple of years later) was a battered 1972 325 Alpina which was also amazingly tough and long lasting.
40 years later I still like Bultacos and CZs but have no interest whatsoever in Tiger Cubs.
A few years ago I bought a basket-case 1963 125 Bultaco Scrambler (Sherpa S) with the intention of riding Classic trials on it.
Soon after that the rules were changed to exclude all Spanish bikes (no matter how old they are), which has stopped me dead in my tracks as far as interest in riding Classic goes.

Like Roger, I also like the idea of running a pre-70 Classic class and for a couple of reasons:
Reason 1 There are lots of 1960s pommy trials bikes (like Sprites for example) that miss out on pre-65 class by being a bit too young, and are no better than a Tiger Cub to ride.
Reason 2 The early examples of Spanish trials bikes (Bultaco M10, M27 and M49, OSSA Pennine and the MK 1 Montesa Cota) are out there, but in need of a class to ride in.

I like the suggestions by oldslowcoach for rules that make it certain of what is acceptable and what is not when putting together a Classic trials bike. It has worked wonders in Classic MX circles having such rules. Another way to manage the ground clearance issue I have seen used elsewhere, is to set a maximum distance for the dimension from the front axle to the top of the fork tubes (it is easier for scrutineers to measure than trying to measure ground clearance directly, and much more difficult to cheat with)

Other Classic Trials riders and potential Classic Trials riders - please tell your story