2015 Proposed rule changes

[JC1]

Allan, thanks for your response.

The rules (old or new) don't mention capacity or flow-on models at all. What's mentioned above in the Guidelines is simply what can/will be deduced from the rules when given a bit of thought.

The Pre-65 rules can be summarized by three simple questions:

1) Was the model available to the public before 1 Jan '65?
2) Are all major components "visually indistinguishable" from those available before '65 (Applies particularly to parts used from later models, &/or replica parts)
3) Are all minor components "visually compatible" with the Pre65 era?

(Need a definite "Yes" to all three questions.)

Altho the rules (old or new) do not specifically mention flow-on models, let alone define them (literally), the rule on major components effectively defines them as models whose major components are all "visually indistinguishable", cos the bike has to pass that rule & if one major component is different it won't pass.

Sooner or later people realize that if all major components of a model produced after '65 are "visually indistinguishable" from those available before '65 then the whole bike can legitimately be used. Since such models are widely referred to as "Flow-on models", after doing our homework looking at major components we listed several models as such, with the provisos that they "may be eligible" & you need to double-check the major components for yourself.

ie The models listed as Flow-on models are those for which, after considerable research, we came to the conclusion had frames, forks, brakes, hubs & all external engine castings which were all "visually indistinguishable" from those available on other models available before '65.

These are clearly labelled "Guidelines" ( NOT rules) & are open to review. If anybody can show us models that should or should not be on the list it will be modified. (In fact the list above has already been edited/updated today.)

But maybe we should have listed them as "Models whose major components are all visually indistinguishable, as far as we know, from those available before 1965". Perhaps we will.

This is also how the reference to capacity (under Flow-ons) came about. On some models/engines at least one major component is noticeably different. eg the 230/250 Ossa engine & the 250 Bultaco & Montesa engines all have at least one major component noticeably diff to their smaller 160/175/200 engines - sufficient to exclude them from the Flow-on list.

Typically the cylinder &/or head has diff shape, size &/or number of fins. It's the same issue as with some Triumph Cubs, & we have endeavoured to apply the same interpretation of the rules across the board to all makes/models so as to maintain consistency. On the 4-speed Bul/Mon/Ossa machines the engine capacity can be used to indicate whether the major components are all "visually indistinguishable" or not, so that's what we did, keeping it simple. ie Under 200 Bul/Mon/Ossa 4sp models are in; 230/250 models are out.

You might also notice that it's only the road & trail Spanish models (4 speed)that are included under Flow-ons. None of the trials models are allowable as flow-on models. Apart from the engine differences mentioned above, frames are a major component & their trials frames are different to what was available pre65 (tho some of them them are only marginally different).

Hope this helps. But if anybody is still confused on any issue please don't hesitate to raise it. Better to sort it out now before the season next year.

[Greg Harding]

A few of us have put together the list below of likely eligible models for Pre65 Classic Trials under the new rules for 2015. These are guidelines only to assist potential builders (& perhaps scrutineers).

A fair bit of research has gone into the list, but it is not meant to be set in concrete. If any are doubtful, please don't hesitate to let us know & we'll investigate further.

Pre65 CLASSIC - Eligible Models Guidelines (These lists are not necessarily exhaustive)

Hi Everyone,

Excellent work John and friends, we are definitely moving forward!

For some reason you have left out the Humble ROKON TRAILBREAKER They fit the criteria of being pre 1965 and they have Flow on models, in fact they FLOAT

imagesV09GOVEY.jpg (46.8 KiB) Viewed 4767 times

OK, there is a couple of little side issues like the Rifle and perhaps the front tyre is too wide? Like you John, I also like to leave no stone unturned and this is probably the Machine to do it!

Moving on to my next suggestion:

How about this Sexy little Italian number
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Bianchi

EDIT Skip that last link as it is the wrong Bianchi Trials!

Try this link:
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=1964 ... d=0CBwQsAQ

[JC1]

Hec Greg, how could we forget your beloved Trailbreaker?
(you facetious wag - adds a bit of verve to the day)

Handles like a hippo, steers like a dragline, powers like a flea but at least it grips like a tiger with those massive 'footprints'... & what's left of 9HP after its passed through 3 chains, a belt & a centrifugal clutch/torque-converter, and spun 5 shafts, 18 bearings, 2 sets of bevel gears & 2 huge wheels! Oh the memories from that fleeting never-to-be-repeated ride 40yrs ago. Couldn't get off it quick enough.

Tell you what Greg, I'll add it to the list when you ride one in a classic trial. Might have trouble getting the tractor treads passsed at scrutineering but they did offer alternate tread patterns somewhat akin to a trials pattern. Can't accept the model with front suspension (& yet another chain) though. They were post-65.

Interesting history here: http://www.rokonworld.com/history.html
Apparently they started with a Maico engine

At your (other) suggestion I addded some eligible Bianchi models to the list above, & some small Harley's as well.

[JC1]

The following are guidelines for eligible models for the new class of Pre-68 Classic/Special. Let us know about anything questionable & we'll investigate further.

Pre’68 CLASSIC/SPECIAL – Eligible Models Guidelines, ie models "available to the public before 1 Jan 1968":
(These lists are not necessarily exhaustive)

British:

BSA any C15, C25, B40, B44; Bantam to D14
Cheetah Cub/Villiers/Husky
Cotton Trials 37A & Starmaker (NOT Minarelli-engined models or DMW-engined Javelin of mid-70s)
DMW Highlander (Cotton frame, Villiers 37A engine) NOT mid-70s DMW-engined model
Dot, any Villiers-engined (NOT Minarelli-engined models)
Elstar Trials
Firefly Cub/Villiers/Greeves/C15
Greeves Wessex & Anglian (to TJS); NOT Pathfinder
Saracen Bantam/Cub (NOT Sachs-engined 5 or 6sp models)
Sapphire Trials
Sprite, any Villiers-engined (NOT Sachs, Zundapp, Hodaka or Sprite-engined models)
Triumph, any Cub including square-fin models; TR25 to 1970; 350/500 twins
Wasp RT4 Bultaco/Bantam/C15/Cub/Villiers/Triumph-twin engined models

Italian:

Benelli Baracuda 250
Cimatti C100 (Morini engine); C150 & C160/ST160 (Minerelli engine)
Ducati Cadet/Mountaineer/Falcon 100; 125 Cadet 4; narrow-case OHC singles to 350. NOT Wide-case or Desmo models
Garelli KL100 (Sachs 4sp engine); KL125 OHV, KL150 OHV Gladiator
Guzzi Stornello 125 & 160 4sp
Italjet 125 Rally (4sp round-case CZ engine)
Laverda 150 OHV Sport/Trail.
Morini Regolarita 153/163, Settebello GTI 250

Japanese:

Bridgestone 175
Honda C201, CT90K0 (includes dual-range), C90, CD/CL90, (NOT SL90 except engine); CD/SS/CL/CB125 ‘sloper’ twins;
- (Honda continued) CA/CB/CL160, CA/CD175 'sloper' twins; NOT any vertical twins
Kawasaki J1 85, G1 90, D1 100, C1/C2 120, B1 125, B8 150, F1/F2 175
Marusho/Lilac, any
Suzuki A/AS100; B100P, B105P Bearcat (NOT KT/TC120 dual-range of ’68ff); S10 125; S32 150
Yamaha L2 100 (eg Trailmaster); YA7-125; YL-1, AS-1 & CS-1 twins (100/125/180)

Spanish:

Bultaco M10 & M27 Sherpa 250, M16 & 26 Matador etc (175/250 round case, round barrel 5sp engines)
Montesa 4sp models only, ie 175 Kenya 8M, Texas 12M & Enduro 14M; Trial 250 (11M); Diablo/Impala-cross 13M; 250 Sport 15M, LaCross 23M,
- (Montesa continued) Cappra 33M & Scorpion 24M; NOT 5sp King Scorpion 34M (which was 5sp)
Mototrans, see Ducati
Ossa 175 Sport, 4sp 230 Sport, Enduro, Scrambler, Wildfire & Pluma/Pennine/Plonker (NO 5sp models)

Other European:

CZ Competition 125, 175, 250 & 350 single port square-case engines (Type972/971/970/973?)
Hercules/Sachs/DKW K75GS/K80GS 5sp
Husky oval-case 4sp 250 & 360, bolt-up frame
Jawa 350 ISDT Type 653 banana-framed; 60s Rutloff Jawa
Maico GS/MC175-250-360, early style double-cradle frame with round tank & oval barrel (X3?) or square barrel top-end (X4?),
- (Maico continued) NOT X4A with later style narrow-cradle double down-tube frame.
MZ ES/ETS 175 & 250 Series2 engines including G models
Puch M125 4sp, also sold as Sears Allstate SR125
White Tornado 250
WSK 175 MR16, square-case engine
Zundapp 4sp 100 spine-framed, eg KS100 Six Days Scrambler (type 519?)


Potential Flow-on models - effectively defined as models having major components that are “visually indistinguishable” from those available to the public before 1968. The following may be eligible for Pre’68 (NB: must check all major components):

American Eagle 150 Renegade? (Same as Laverda/Garelli 150?)
Bridgestone 200 ??
BSA D175 Bantam, B25 to 1970.
Bultaco Campera 175 Mk2 (M28 & 57), maybe Series 1 M49 Sherpa T (ie with central cradle tube)
Honda CT90 K1-k6 dual-range engines but NOT the frames; CB/CL175 'Sloper' twins (but NOT vertical twins)
Kawasaki KC125 (same as B1); F3 175
Ossa 250 4sp 250 Enduro/Pionner, Sport/Wildfire & Scrambler/Cross models (but NOT 5sp models)
Suzuki AC100 Wolf?, B120
Yamaha L5 (eg Trailmaster); AS-2 (125) & CS-2 (180) twins; probably CS-3 twin (200)

Potential after-market frames could include:
(not an exhaustive list but examples of what should be eligible)

Armac Cub
Drayton Bantam/Villiers/Cub
Gollner Cub/Villiers
Homer/Whitmore/Wright Bantam
Mills BSA
Otter BSA/Triumph
Wright/Whitten/Andrews James
Wasp Villiers/Bultaco/C15/B40/Cub/Triumph-twin

[JC1]

Gents, we received the following email from MA this morning:


"The 2015 manual is available on the MA website here: http://ma.org.au/fileadmin/user_upload/ ... 5_MoMS.pdf "


All 404 pages of it! Just as well they gave us the link cos I can't find it on the website otherwise.

Head to pages 318 (Section 23.1 & 23.5) & 330 (section 23.17)for the Classic rules.

Thankfully they did delete the redundant clause from the Post-Classic rules.

Have a Classic Christmas everyone!

[Twinshock200]

Thanks for the update John and a job well done.
It just shows that by going about things in an organised manner, careful consideration by a number of experienced people and well a well presented proposal of ideas,,,,, changes for improvement can happen.
Lets hope we see a few more pre 68 "specials" appearing and a few more genuine pre 65's being dragged out over the next couple of seasons but I still believe it needs the clubs and section setters to lay out appropriate sections for these bikes,,,,,, but thats another story,,,,,,, or club !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Galps

[David Lahey]

Well done John, and everyone else involved