Cub barrels.

[TriCub]

I'm not going to spend to much time responding to all but I'll make a couple of comments.

Francis. Great to here from you. The bottom line with classics is that it's a competition governed by MA and with that there are rules like them or not we are we are stuck with it. The rules at a club level are generaly ignored as it is more about fun but at a title quite often there is an eligability guy appionted and it is his job to pick out bikes or parts that don't meet the rules. He also gets to settle any protests. I'll give an example, lets say you ride and get beaten by a bike fitted with one of the replica barrels that we looked at at the beginning of this thread. You put in a written protest because you believe it is not eligable, the eligablity scrutineer looks at the bike and has to determine if it's visually indistingusable from the original. If it has one less fin it fails the visual check and the rider is out. Then all hell brakes lose with name calling but the eligability guy has to follow the rules.
What I'm trying to get across is that we have to have rules that the majority of riders are happy with. If the majority of riders think that replica parts that aren't quite replicas in the true sense should be allowed then we need to put in place guidlines.
Peter pionted to the classic MX rules as an example. Just what we need, but not put together by the normal commission, instead by a group of actual classic riders appionted by fellow riders to formulate a new set of of rules. The next step is to stick with them. This ability to change the rules every year is a killer for any class.

Roger a Jikov is the brand of carb that comes on almost all CZ's and Jawa's they are effectionetly referred to as a jerk-ov carb. Until Geoff pionted it out to me I thought they were the worst carb available but know I see I was incorrect, they are the second worst.
You should also have a look at the 2013 rule book , there is nothing about "any carb". They did removed the clause about the no Jap on Pommy bikes and also the use of MK1 Anals. Carbs have also been taken out of the major component list. That opens up a possible protest line in that carbs still have to be in keeping with the period being depicted. Because a MK1 didn't come out until 1966 they are not in keeping with a pre65 bike. Probable won't happen but it does highlight the need for properly writen rules.

[Jon V8]

Tricub,it sounds like the MA need sorting out to cater for the riders wishes - how can there be no class for Spanish twinshocks or Sprites/Greeves/Cottons etc ? Who is running the MA,do they not realise that people have these bikes and would enjoy continuing their youth ?
Would anybody really complain that they were beaten by someone using a square barrel on a Cub,sounds like jealousy, that the square barrel rider has more ability.
Having a long list of rules to comply with will put people off riding their bikes,why not just run trials for fun with no awards,or make people with "trick" bikes,(Wherever you want to set the bar on that - just keep it simple)ride for no award.
Having sections set out so that riders can get round them without being scared to death or being damaging to bikes,(Or riders)if it goes wrong will go a long way to getting old bikes out and people enjoying them,its as simple as that.The last two sundays I have ridden a Somerton Classic club trial and a Golden Valley long distance trial.The Somerton one had 94 entries,(Only 90 rode as 4 gave up their ride to observe) with bikes ranging from a 1929 Ariel with girder forks,open valve gear and primary chain,to modern monos ridden by more senior riders like Bob Gollner.The Golden Valley trial had around 150 riders on bikes from a 1946 AJS up to a brand new KTM 350 Freeride and everything in between including a couple of outfits.We rode from 9am to 4pm with a 15min lunch/fuel stop - a long day.
Both trials were run in freezing or close to freezing conditions,both days it would have been easy to have stayed home in front of the fire and gotten bored in front of the TV,but we all chose to ride - and thoroughly enjoyed it,no complaints about trick bikes,just lots of mickey taking.Plus cheering when a tricky clean is achieved.
This saturday we will be marking out our first trial this year,hoping to attract 60-100 riders,two routes,nothing too tight on the B route to suit pre unit/rigids and novice riders.The A route will have some more tricky stuff to catch out riders not paying attention,again nothing silly.Just a couple of sections will hopefully be hard enough to sort out a winner.A fun day out on old bangers,cant think of a better way of spending a sunday in the country....

[paulm]

[quote="I smiled at your thoughts of me becoming an MA trials commission dictator George and bulldozing my ideas through the system but isn't that exactly what happenend with the "any carb" rule just introduced.[/quote]

I must take issue with you on the comment above. As one of the co-authors of the rule change we solicited opinion from interested riders, specifically those who didn’t have ‘an axe to grind’ and the overwhelming majority where in favour.

I fail to see how any commissioner ‘bulldozed’ that rule through. Are you suggesting there might have been some form of impropriety here? If you are I would suggest that the commissioners concerned might take umbrage at such a thought.

[Twinshock200]

Hi Paulm, if you read back in previous posts you will understand that I was merely responding to a suggestion that I would change the rules

Get in "bee in your bonnet" about the rules , get a position as a commissioner and then get rule changes to happen despite what the majority of riders want.

I have the utmost respect for the voluntary job the Commissioners do, they ensure that fairness prevails and listen to suggestions from all quarters, its just a pity that there are so few Classic riders with so many different opinions.

[Geoff Lewis]

Hi All, I like the idea of a list of eligible components. Ground clearance maximum only if the frame has been altered from original ie. frame bottom tube cut. Adding extra tube or other things under an original frame to meet the maximum clearance height was done in Vic many years ago , was silly and looked it. Hi Francis,I know who you are and after having ridden your bike on a couple of occasions, I believe you deserve a bravery medal everytime you compete. The bike is charming but very much as a bike was in the fifties I would think. I don't think there has been any buldozing and please remember people are trying to change things because they think it might help.The subject of M10, M27, Sprite etc. How many owners of these bikes would actually ride them in a competition? How many of these type of bikes are out there. If we had some idea,it might help people make a decision. I think the sections might be too hard for people just starting out in Classic and Twinshock and that is putting potential riders off as well.
Regards Geoff.

[TriCub]

[quote="I smiled at your thoughts of me becoming an MA trials commission dictator George and bulldozing my ideas through the system but isn't that exactly what happenend with the "any carb" rule just introduced.

I must take issue with you on the comment above. As one of the co-authors of the rule change we solicited opinion from interested riders, specifically those who didn’t have ‘an axe to grind’ and the overwhelming majority where in favour.

I fail to see how any commissioner ‘bulldozed’ that rule through. Are you suggesting there might have been some form of impropriety here? If you are I would suggest that the commissioners concerned might take umbrage at such a thought.[/quote]

Paul. I'd like to thank you and the other Commissioners that got this new rule through. I thought that there was good open and rational discussion on the matter which is how it should be. I would have liked to see a bit different wording to make it 100% clear but it is certainly a good start.

You can see from the comments of the few people talking on the thread that there is a need to clear up a few issues on eligabiliy and possible relax some of the rules to allow more people into the class if it is to survive.
Other forms of classic bike have their own commissions to look after their rules but classic trials is not big enough for that but why not setup a sub group made up of classic only riders to formulate a plan.
First order of buisness would be to come up with a list of riders or potential riders so that proper polling can take place.
The ball is in your court on this one as it needs to be organised with the blessing of MA.

[paulm]

Mate - Just to set the record straight I’m not nor ever have been a Commissioner – just a humble ex NSW Trials Committee member trying to do a bit to help.

You’re right – there is lots of ‘stuff’ that needs to sorted but I guess my major concern is this:

Imagine an absolute Newby thinking about getting the old bike out of the shed to have a go, or even going out and buying one…

They head to TA to get some of the ‘good oil’ and guess what – they walk away thinking the whole twinshock/classic scene is run by bunch of jobsworths and that most of the competition takes place in the protest room.

I’m not pointing fingers - we’re all to blame - but we must pick up our game and make the sport much more ‘inclusive’…

Paul Mac

[TriCub]

Paul.
Sorry to a accuse you of being a commissioner that is quite a low blow. Still thank you for all your input involed in fixing the carb rules.

[Geoff Lewis]

Hi Paul, I am not aware of any protest being lodged in Classics during any trial I have attended. Is anyone aware of an eligibility protest at any major trials event in Australia? I think it's the last thing anyone would want to do. We all have an opinion but some keep it to themselves and others love a yak!
Regards Geoff.

[Twinshock200]

The nearest thing to a protest that I can recall was when the M10 won the Aussie title a few years ago but that only provoked comment on this website and as far as I know nothing was ever done officially.
As far as the carb rule changes are concerned it is interesting to hear about all the surveys that were carried out, are the results available anywhere ???.

I submitted a proposal to the MA trials commission last year regarding changing Classic Pre 65 to Classic Pre 70 thus allowing more bikes into the Classic scene and I will do the same again when appropriate this year for next years MOMS, Pre 65 will gradually fade away unless we introduce changes like this.

Its not controversial, nobody will have an axe to grind, some Spanish bikes are allowed in, maybe even a few RL's and a few more Pommie models so everyone should be happy.It could even be broken into, European bikes, British, and even a "specials" class for modified bikes which would negate the need for intricate measurement rules which are so hard to enforce when there is a line up of bikes at scrutineering

Guys we need to think about this carefully and with an open mind, its promoted publicly on this forum so we don't need "surveys" just common sense discussion for the commissioners to see for themselves.
Cheers
Galps