yorkshireracer wrote:Don't know where you got the idea of what I'm looking at building ? Don't know myself yet, which was the whole point of me coming on here to see what was happening, what everyone wanted. Just be nice for everyone to sort this out and decide once and for all. I' d actually PREFER to build the REPLICA stuff as that is where my real interest is, but at the end of the day, it's down to what everyone wants.
What frames pre65 is it possible to copy and make replicas off? In one of your previous post you talked about making frames in the style off xxx, which to me means not exact replicas. Excuse me for getting it wrong.
It should be possible to build ANY frame providing I can get proper detailed drawings or an original to copy from. The limiting factors when building from drawings are availability of an engine and forks / yokes. Once the 1st is built and I've got a jig then it's a piece of cake after that. Couple of questions about your rules if you could answer please - Do the frames have to be made from original materials or can you use modern materials (ie chrome moly) ? Can you put any engine in any frame or do they have to be same ? I'm building test bike using a Suzuki TS250 simply because that's what I have kicking about so does it have to be a Suzuki frame ?
On a tangent, I know there as been some mention of chinese frames, what about chinese engines in EXACT replica 60's / 70's frames if the engines where a similar power output to the original Brit/ Jap motors ? Or is this opening a whole knew can of worms ? I'm just putting it out there as a cheap alternative to the cost and availability of original engines.
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There's also Rule 23.2.1.1 e) and f) relevant to Classics & Post-classics:
e) Classic - for machines manufactured before 1965 and excluding machines manufactured in Spain,
f) Post Classic (Twin Shock) - for machines manufactured before 1986. The machines may not be fitted with disc brakes or mono-shocks,
and 23.5.0.7 d) (iii) that's relevant to Classic specials:
iii) Pre-1965 machines that have been modified so as to provide a ground clearance or chassis performance more in keeping with this era shall compete as specials in this Post Classic category
(The whole of 23.5.0.7 is relevant to classics)
"Men are never more likely to settle a matter rightly than when they can discuss it freely"
yorkshireracer wrote:Couple of questions about your rules if you could answer please - 1. Do the frames have to be made from original materials or can you use modern materials (ie chrome moly) ? 2. Can you put any engine in any frame or do they have to be same ? I'm building test bike using a Suzuki TS250 simply because that's what I have kicking about so does it have to be a Suzuki frame ?
3. On a tangent, I know there as been some mention of chinese frames, what about chinese engines in EXACT replica 60's / 70's frames if the engines where a similar power output to the original Brit/ Jap motors ? Or is this opening a whole knew can of worms ? I'm just putting it out there as a cheap alternative to the cost and availability of original engines.
Under the current rules, giving best case & worst case interpretation: (I numbered yr Q'ns for easy reference)
1. The relevant rule is 23.5.0.4 ie major components "manufactured outside the era" must be "visually indistinguishable" from original to be eligible. Hard to prove diff material, since it would be "visually indistinguishable", but it maybe argued that its not in the spirit of the era, if its known that its cro-mo/531 etc. Tho such materials were available back then, they weren't used in production models to my knowledge. You might leave yourself open to the bike being classed as a special & pushed into Twinshock category under rule 23.5.0.7 d) (iii).
2. A reasonable interpretation of 23.5.0.4 would allow engine swaps I would think, if only the engine mounts are changed, but a strict interpret'n would say the frame is no longer "visually indistinguishable" if they are changed. If original engine mounts were left in place & adapter plates used you'd be safe I would think.
3. Again the relevant rule is 23.5.0.4 If the engines are "visually indistinguishable" from the originals (eg like Indian built RE Bullets) I'd think you'd be right, but the chinese-copy Jap engines I'm familiar with are visually diff, mostly in the outer engine cases
Much of the debate over classic rules on the other thread was over how strict or flexible existing rules should be interpreted.
"Men are never more likely to settle a matter rightly than when they can discuss it freely"
Gents, the consensus on the other thread discussion seemed to be to extend the cutoff date beyond Pre-65 up to but excluding the M27 Sherpa 5-speed (available in Aug 67)to make more bikes available.
I've come up with the following 2 lists showing bikes that became available in '65-66 & '67 as accurately as I could.The intention is to help people make an informed decision on how far to extend the cut-off date if they so desire: pre-67 or pre-68 (the options that were suggested)
You may know of other models &/or more accurate dates. Feel free to speak up. I'm not familiar w Italian makes so Ducati is the only one listed.
I'm not suggesting all these models would be suitable for trials, but there are lots here that have been used/converted & I found the others along the way.
For Pre-67, these would be included: * denotes 5speed models
Newly available in ‘65-66: BSA B44 , Bantam Cub & Super Cub Bultaco M10 Sherpa 250, Matador Mk2 250, Lobito 100, Campera 175 Cotton Villiers (later models, I think they went back to 37A engine from Starmaker Trials engine) CZ Competition 125,175, 250 & 350 single port square-case engines, Type972/971/970/973 I think (some of them may have been available late '64) Dot Villiers 37A, later models Ducati 350 Sebring* Narrow-case, 250 Mk3 n/case*, 250 Diana MK3 USA* (Some 250s were 5sp pre65 too). NOT Wide-case or Desmo models which were only avail in ‘68 Greeves Wessex & Anglian Honda CT90, CA160, CB160, CL160 (S90, CD90 & CT200 - which was 90cc - were available in ‘64, as were the CA95 150 Benlys) Husky oval-case 250 & 360 Jawa 350 ISDT Type653 banana-framed (250 type 652 available in ‘64) Kawasaki D1 100, C1 120, B1 125 (later called KC125), B8 150, F1 175 Maico 175-250-360 GS/MC ‘65-66, alloy round barrel, double cradle frame Montesa Texas/Kenya 175, Impala 250, Diablo & Scorpion 250 (NOT King Scorpion), La Cross 250 Ossa 175 Sport, 230 Sport & Scrambler RE Continental GT250 5sp * (5sp optional on Crusader too. The Super 5 was available pre65) Sanglas 100 Sport (Zundapp engined) Sprite Mk2 & Villiers 37A Suzuki B100/120P, B105 Bearcat, A100 Triumph Cub square-finned WSK 175 MR16 Yamaha L2C 100, YA6-125 Zundapp KS100 pressed steel frame (GS100 was available in 63/64))
For Pre-68 these would also become available:
Newly available in ‘67: AJS 37A-T maybe? Or was it ’68? BSA C25/B25, B40WD, Bantam 4-speed D10 & Bushman Cheetah Cub/Villiers/Husky DMW Highland Trials (Cotton frame, Villiers 37A engine) Ducati Cadet/Mountaineer/Falcon 100 (2T 4sp), Cadet 125/4 (4T push-rod engine) Firefly Cub/Villiers/Greeves/C15 Honda CL90, CA/CD 175 (NOT CB/CL175 which were ‘68 & 5sp) Kawasaki C2TR/SS 120, F2 175 Maico square barrels maybe Montesa 250 Trial (11M), Cappra 250 (33M) MZ ES/ETS 175 & 250 Series2 engines Ossa 230 Pioneer, Wildfire & Pluma/Pennine/Plonker Puch M125 4sp, also sold as Sears Allstate SR125 (may have been available in 66) Saracen Bantam/Cub Sprite Cub Suzuki KT120 maybe (3sp dual range) Yamaha L5-T 100 Zundapp 125 * maybe
If it was preferred to go Pre-68, to include say the 4sp Bantams, B25/C25s & the 1st 4sp trials models from Ossa & Montesa (comparable to the M10 Sherpa), the rule could be worded (eg) "Pre-68, excluding 5-speed Trials models (as these are deemed next generation)"
"Men are never more likely to settle a matter rightly than when they can discuss it freely"
HI JC! who are you and where is your bike ,all year i"ve been hearing this crap,Join a club and get involved. WE have a set of rules .JUST turn up, that is the best thing we can do to keep this class alive
Sybela, I posted an intro (about who I am) earlier on this thread, just as David requested.
Thankfully there are wise heads on here who are willing to look into the causes of why so few turn up to ride classics, & discuss it in a level-headed manner. Not hard to see why many of them want that discussion to be off forum
It maybe "crap" to you, but if we take the relevant threads seriously there's obviously plenty on here who see the existing rules as a limiting factor & want to do something constructive about it.
As the saying goes, "Men are never more likely to settle a matter rightly than when they are allowed to discuss it freely".
"Men are never more likely to settle a matter rightly than when they can discuss it freely"
Hi jci the people who you are refering to, have not rode a classic trial in a number of years ,some havn't riden a classic trial at all .Most of the blokes in QLD that do ride pre 65 class havn't bothered with this thread . I find it a bit hard for a push to change from a bloke that does not ride or people who are not involed with clubs, if we need changes to get people into pre 65class i think it should come through the members via MA affiliated clubs .
