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[David Lahey]

Greg have to ask. Wouldn`t the 9 tooth countershaft sprocket wear the chain out very fast? The smallest I can go on a real Trials bike :Bultaco: is an 11 tooth. I can remember reading that folk used to warn against using a 10 tooth on the front as it made everything wear really quickly.

Graham, maybe power is needed to wear out the front sprocket and of the two, only the has that?

[Greg Harding]

Hi Everyone,

Greg have to ask. Wouldn`t the 9 tooth countershaft sprocket wear the chain out very fast? The smallest I can go on a real Trials bike :Bultaco: is an 11 tooth. I can remember reading that folk used to warn against using a 10 tooth on the front as it made everything wear really quickly.

Graham, maybe power is needed to wear out the front sprocket and of the two, only the :Bultaco: has that?

Shouldn't we be more worried about torque David?

Fair question Graham, I think you might be surprised how many bikes run a 9T since went out of production? are limited with them having the clutch pushrod through the Centre of the counter sprocket shaft.

Now that I think about it, depends on the choice of chain, how you maintain/lubricate it and how long you run the chain. An old story always make me laugh goes something like this:
When you run out of adjustment on your chain and you have to remove a link, the chain wears out really fast after that!
TLR 250s came standard with 9T and I think TLR 200s as well. Pretty sure RTLs came with 9T along with 4RTs up until and including present models.
It is not just a thing, I choose to run a 9T on the the front of TLR 200 to get the gearing that I want, if I go to a 10T like on my BLOODY , I would need to run 55T on the back and that is getting big enough to affect the pull of the chain.

XR 200 which is what TLRs are based run 13T and that makes sense in terms of wear most likely because they are expected to do more kilometers?
The difference between the TLR models is in the primary drive with the 250 being a lower ratio.
Apparently the 250 has a different 6th gear as the bigger cylinder gets in the way, I have never had either apart.
The wheels and hubs are different, the clutch actuation arm is shorter on a TLR 200 and anyone can feel free to add to the list........

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Has anyone got similar brochures for TLR 200? There is an old story that Australia bought 1 bike in but never pursued it until the 250 came out, I have always been curious about how many TLR 250s were sold in Australia?
Might it be 80?

[David Lahey]

Hi Everyone,

Greg have to ask. Wouldn`t the 9 tooth countershaft sprocket wear the chain out very fast? The smallest I can go on a real Trials bike :Bultaco: is an 11 tooth. I can remember reading that folk used to warn against using a 10 tooth on the front as it made everything wear really quickly.

Graham, maybe power is needed to wear out the front sprocket and of the two, only the :Bultaco: has that?

Shouldn't we be more worried about torque David?

Fair question Graham, I think you might be surprised how many bikes run a 9T since :Bultaco: went out of production? :Bultaco: are limited with them having the clutch pushrod through the Centre of the counter sprocket shaft.

Graham, I had to think a bit about what you said about the smallest sprocket that would fit on a being an 11 tooth because I remember the struggle I had to fit a 12 tooth sprocket on my Bultaco. I even had to cut the locking tab down so the chain didn't hit it with the 12. Then it dawned on me that you have a 520 chain and I'm using a 428 chain which means that my 12 tooth 428 sprocket is about the same size as a 10 tooth 520 sprocket.

Greg I've seen those 9 tooth sprockets on 4RTs and they look quite amazingly small. I didn't realise that the TLR had the same. What I'm keen to hear about is what you have found about the way the bloody compares with the TLR200 from a rider's perspective.

[David Lahey]

While I'm on about front sprockets I remember having to machine the inside half of the sprocket nut hex off on my MAR to get chain clearance on a particularly small front sprocket.
Even with that tiny front sprocket, it still had to have a huge rear sprocket to get it slow enough in 1st gear.

[David Lahey]

TLR250 = 88 kg (measured at the brochure)

[David Lahey]

Hi Everyone,

Greg have to ask. Wouldn`t the 9 tooth countershaft sprocket wear the chain out very fast? The smallest I can go on a real Trials bike :Bultaco: is an 11 tooth. I can remember reading that folk used to warn against using a 10 tooth on the front as it made everything wear really quickly.

Graham, maybe power is needed to wear out the front sprocket and of the two, only the :Bultaco: has that?

Shouldn't we be more worried about torque David?

Greg it's not the power or even the torque that does the damage with tiny sprockets. It's the surface velocity of the link tubes against the link pins. The smaller the sprocket the higher the surface velocity there due to the increased angle that each link has to rotate through. With a tiny sprocket like a 520 with 9 teeth, riding slowly like our trials usually are all is well and the chain and sprocket will last for ages but if you were to do something like the SSDT and have to ride fast, the pins and tubes get hot and wear out very quickly.
I remember as a kid going for trail rides on Stradbroke Island before trailbikes were banned from the beaches and there was quite a bit of soft dry deep sand riding and it was always a big discussion point about whether to put some sort of chain lube on or not.
Pro chain lube was that that at least the pins and tubes and rollers wouldn't overheat from friction.
Pro running them completely dry (cleaned off with solvent) was that the sand wouldn't be stuck to the oily rubbing surfaces so wear would be reduced.
I was relieved of having to make that decision when O-ring chains were invented and our late night discussions could move on.

[David Lahey]

Hi Everyone,

Just thought I would give an update on my :Honda:, I am really enjoying the riding and it certainly makes the effort worthwhile. Having ridden it for the last 3 weekends and getting feedback from the bike along with fine tuning some of the little things makes me really happy! A couple of things that I wasn't happy with have now all been resolved with the main bug bear being the clutch that was not very progressive. The feel and drive were good and the motor in general has not done much work, it is a warm and fuzzy feeling removing the clutch cover and finding Genuine :Honda: gasket and unmolested JIS screws (similar to Philips) holding the filter cover. Even better when there is almost nothing caught in the filter. Makes me think very low Kilometres so the clutch wasn't slipping even with a fair bit of abuse punching up steps. However the snappiness plays havoc with my timing and I find that I can be further ahead than I want to be rather quickly.

The BLOODY :Honda: (TLR 250) had worn clutch plates and more torque so I went with Barnett plates and the Anti Judder Kit to make it more progressive. The results are no slip and progressive feel but the 200 is a bit different and I think more snappy in the clutch than the 250 ever was. So the fix was simply fit the Anti Judder Kit:

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The thing that I find interesting is it was a fix from back in the day, if you complained about the clutch being snappy while under warranty, the fix was free and if you left it until out of warranty you had to pay! It certainly works as I can now stand and balance on full lock and take off in any of the bottom 3 gears without reducing lock. Whereas before it was simply awkward, in the same situation it would push the front straight ahead ploughing on loose surfaces or lift and skip the front until it bit in on anything a bit grippy.

Somehow I managed to find this and I would like another to have as a spare:

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Something tells me that I got the last NOS Genuine :Honda: 9T in existence? The :Honda: 9Ts run quieter than the Talon 9Ts.

How does the anti-judder kit work and from a technical perspective, what is special about TLRs that they require such a thing?

[Greg Harding]

Hi Everyone,

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The BLOODY (TLR 250) had worn clutch plates and more torque so I went with Barnett plates and the Anti Judder Kit to make it more progressive. The results are no slip and progressive feel but the 200 is a bit different and I think more snappy in the clutch than the 250 ever was. So the fix was simply fit the Anti Judder Kit:
The thing that I find interesting is it was a fix from back in the day, if you complained about the clutch being snappy while under warranty, the fix was free and if you left it until out of warranty you had to pay! It certainly works as I can now stand and balance on full lock and take off in any of the bottom 3 gears without reducing lock. Whereas before it was simply awkward, in the same situation it would push the front straight ahead ploughing on loose surfaces or lift and skip the front until it bit in on anything a bit grippy.
How does the anti-judder kit work and from a technical perspective, what is special about TLRs that they require such a thing?

Now that you ask the question David, I regret not measuring the thicknesses of all of the bits and I probably should clarify that these clutch plates fit multiple models. Some models have less plates and some models have more plates, the standard plates are 3mm thick and with the Anti Judder kit fitted the overall stack height is less. You have to adjust free play as the actuator arm is closer to the cable outer holder. My reference to warranty might not include TLRs as they are competition bikes? The instruction sheet looks to be a 87th generation photo copy and is not totally clear but good enough to get the key points.

How does it work you say? Well I was hoping you were going to explain it!

My theory is when you pull the clutch in it compresses the bellvue spring at a different rate to the coil springs.

Then when you release the clutch, the reverse is true and this is where it gets FUZZY!

Maybe it breaks up the stack and the drive is staggered rather than snapping all of the plates into drive at once resembling a switch. On a totally different scenario, Drag cars have pneumatically controlled clutches that stagger the drive and the are fairly adjustable.

So if you think BIG horsepower, drivers that CANNOT steer around corners in a BIG hurry only following directions from a Christmas Tree that sometimes get to there destination. My point is that the CLUTCH must be smarter the the MORON dumping it?

As in the photos,there are 3 pieces, a clutch plate with a bigger hole, a spacer ring that fit inside it and a Bellvue spring the same size as the spacer that also fits inside the big bore clutch plate. The bellvue spring has to go in with the white marker outwards, I assume so the high point of the spring contacts the strongest part of the pressure plate. Upside down would load up the outer edge of the aluminium pressure plate and it might flex?

So to summarize, not only have Anti Judder kits and it simply works.

For some reason I think you asked me another question BUT I have forgotten what it was David?

[David Lahey]

Hi Everyone,

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For some reason I think you asked me another question BUT I have forgotten what it was David?

No you haven't you are just avoiding it

[David Lahey]

This is so creative. I love it